Bible Forum

The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

It is currently Sat May 25, 2013 10:58 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Forum rules


Welcome to the Catholic Theology sub forum.

The purpose of this sub forum is to discuss things within Catholicism that may or may not line up with the Scriptures. (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox etc)

Please remember that while we allow discussion of the various doctrines within Catholicism this is an Evangelical Christian Forum which believes in
  • Sola Scriptura,
  • Sola Gratia,
  • Sola Fide,
  • Solus Christus,
  • Soli Deo Gloria
What this forum is NOT!

This forum is NOT the place to bash Catholicism nor is it the place to bash either Evangelical Christians or the Reformation or any one individual. If any one is found violating this, posts will be immediately removed and warnings given.

This is also NOT the place for those who disagree with Evangelical Christianity or the Forums Statement of Beliefs to use this forum as a "teaching platform" to promote beliefs contrary to the above. While it is permissible to answers questions asked concerning these beliefs starting threads with the attempt to teach will be removed forthwith and warnings issued.

Please remember that while we allow discussion of the various doctrines within Catholicism if you are here to simply promote Catholicism of any type this forum is not for you.

The "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church", is the church which is universal, and which includes all who have faith in Jesus and are filled with the Holy Spirit of God no matter what denominational affliation they belong to.

There are Christians and non Christians within the Evangelical faith and there are Christians and non Christians within Catholicism. This forum is to come together on what we have in common and not what we don't. There is hope ... but only when unity is sought in Christ and in the power of his Holy Spirit.

Remember the Code of Conduct standards apply as well.



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Forgivness of sins
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:29 pm
Posts: 24
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Baptist
I had a question in another thread that was locked and I was wondering if I can continue it. It's the last post in this thread and it went over verses for the Catholics and confessions. His main point was what John said in chapter 20:21-23. My Study Bible actually says that this is really literally translated as "Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven." My Bible notes say that those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Jesus Christ. Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 seem to say the same thing that's not meant to be taken so literally. What do you think? Did God really chose to do forgive through the ordained men of the priesthood and the Sacrament of Reconciliation that He Himself instituted?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forgivness of sins
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:11 pm
Posts: 27
Location: California
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Baptist
Name of your church: First Baptist Church of Irvine-Tustin
Confessing our sins to one another is indeed a biblical concept. (See James 5:16) But no man, clergy or layman, has the authority to forgive sins. This authority rests with Jesus Christ alone. However, we, as His ambassadors, i.e. His representatives, here on this earth, have been given the message of reconciliation. (See 2 Corinthians 5:18-21) That means that we are to proclaim that forgiveness for sins is available through Jesus Christ because of what He did on the cross, and we, clergy and laymen alike, can say with all certainty that a person's sins have been forgiven if they have confessed them before Jesus Christ. (See 1 John 1:9) And that is not because of any inherent authority of our own, but because of the authority of Jesus Christ and the Word that testifies about the forgiveness available through Him.

I think that corporate confession is a neglected part of corporate worship. If we read throughout the Psalms and through other parts of the OT narrative, we see that one part of their corporate worship experience was the confession of sins. When was the last time that we, as the people of God, came before Him in our Sunday services and corporately confessed, mourned, weeped for our sinfulness in worship? When was the last time we lamented over the sinfulness of our nation before God as a part of our Sunday morning services?

_________________
For to me, living is Christ and dying is gain. Phil. 1:21

All scripture quotations are HCSB unless otherwise noted.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forgivness of sins
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:54 pm
Posts: 2193
Location: Atlanta
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Non-denominational
Name of your church: http://northpoint.org
The passages you mentioned are:
John 20:
Quote:
When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Matthew 16
Quote:
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

and Matthew 18:
Quote:
"If another member of the church sins against you, go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If the member listens to you, you have regained that one. 16 But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them."


In the first and third quote, Jesus is speaking to multiple disciples. In the second He is speaking to Peter. My personal opinion is that the second passage was said by Jesus specifically to increase the acceptability (among Jews) of opening the church to the Gentiles.

I don't see anything that could be viewed as creating a priesthood as mediators between God and man. We also have this passage:

1 Timothy 2:
Quote:
For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time.


We also have an absence of any records of the early church creating a set of priests to forgive sins. Forgiveness comes from confessing our sins, believing, and accepting Christ.

_________________
Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forgivness of sins
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:35 pm
Posts: 1376
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Anglican
Name of your church: Currently seeking a biblical church
I don't have the time right now but perhaps a study of what "afihmi" means here in John 20:23 would be helpful. It can mean "depart" "send away" "forgive" "remit" and a whole host of other things.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forgivness of sins
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:29 pm
Posts: 24
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Baptist
I would love that. Thanks.

Thank you for the responses so far as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forgivness of sins
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:22 pm 
Christ_Follower wrote:
What do you think? Did God really chose to do forgive through the ordained men of the priesthood and the Sacrament of Reconciliation that He Himself instituted?

Absolutely.
PastorPhil wrote:
Confessing our sins to one another is indeed a biblical concept. (See James 5:16) But no man, clergy or layman, has the authority to forgive sins. This authority rests with Jesus Christ alone.

Jesus gave this authority to his disciples when He said, "As the Father has sent me, so I send YOU," and "Recieve the Holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven, and whose sins YOU retain are retained." So if you argue that his disciples do not have authority, then inevitably you also imply that Christ had no authority, because they were sent by Christ as Christ was sent by the Father. (See John 20:21-23)
PastorPhil wrote:
However, we, as His ambassadors, i.e. His representatives, here on this earth, have been given the message of reconciliation. (See 2 Corinthians 5:18-21)

Those who are ordained also have the MINISTRY of reconciliation. (See 2 Cor 5:18) The message includes the ministry (service and functions) which were given to the disciples by Jesus in John 20:21-23.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Forgivness of sins
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:13 am
Posts: 7
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Roman Catholic
Name of your church: Church of the Epiphany
Christ_Follower wrote:
My Study Bible actually says that this is really literally translated as "Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven." My Bible notes say that those who proclaim the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Jesus Christ. Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 seem to say the same thing that's not meant to be taken so literally.


Hi Christ Follower,
Of course your Bible says that, because it conflicts with general non-Catholic theology to take it at face value.
Jesus did die on the cross for our sins, and his was an eternal sacrifice. But we still have to repent of our sins to be forgiven. Even Jesus says so, in the Lord's Prayer:

Matthew 6:9-15 wrote:
9 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread;
12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;
13 and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one.
14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

The prayer and the verses following it clearly state that we are to pray to ask God to forgive us our sins, and if we don't we aren't forgiven. Those hearing the gospel and "accepting Jesus (as Lord)" would mean that they accept everything Jesus says, including the "Our Father", which is crystal clear about what it takes to have our sins forgiven, which is repentance and forgiving others.

In John 20:20-22, Jesus is breathing power into the apostles, just as God breathed life into Adam. He is giving them the power to forgive sins, a power that comes from God.

So God can forgive sins, and those with Apostolic authority can forgive sins. Because Jesus gave them the power to and told them to do it.

God Bless,

Andre


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group