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Board index » 7-Theology ~ Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 » 7a: General Theological Discussion » 7a4: Catholic Theology

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32k
 Post subject: Tradition and Scripture
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Hi Catholic brothers and sisters,

I noticed that Tradition and Scripture are essentially equal in Catholicism. How can this be?
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DailyBread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:07 pm 
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May I take the easy way to answer your question?

The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church says this:

    The Transmission of Divine Revelation

    11. Why and in what way is divine revelation transmitted?
    74
    God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), that is, of Jesus Christ. For this reason, Christ must be proclaimed to all according to his own command, “Go forth and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19). And this is brought about by Apostolic Tradition.

    12. What is Apostolic Tradition?
    75-79,
    83,
    96, 98
    Apostolic Tradition is the transmission of the message of Christ, brought about from the very beginnings of Christianity by means of preaching, bearing witness, institutions, worship, and inspired writings. The apostles transmitted all they received from Christ and learned from the Holy Spirit to their successors, the bishops, and through them to all generations until the end of the world.

    13. In what ways does Apostolic Tradition occur?
    76
    Apostolic Tradition occurs in two ways: through the living transmission of the word of God (also simply called Tradition) and through Sacred Scripture which is the same proclamation of salvation in written form.

    14. What is the relationship between Tradition and Sacred Scripture?
    80-82
    97
    Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ. They flow out of the same divine well-spring and together make up one sacred deposit of faith from which the Church derives her certainty about revelation.

    15. To whom is the deposit of faith entrusted?
    84, 91
    94, 99
    The Apostles entrusted the deposit of faith to the whole of the Church. Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith the people of God as a whole, assisted by the Holy Spirit and guided by the Magisterium of the Church, never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine revelation.

    16. To whom is given the task of authentically interpreting the deposit of faith?
    85-90
    100
    The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the deposit of faith has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone, that is, to the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, and to the bishops in communion with him. To this Magisterium, which in the service of the Word of God enjoys the certain charism of truth, belongs also the task of defining dogmas which are formulations of the truths contained in divine Revelation. This authority of the Magisterium also extends to those truths necessarily connected with Revelation.

    17. What is the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?
    95
    Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium are so closely united with each other that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

The numbers under the questions refer to paragraph numbers in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

If the above quote does not supply the answer to your question, please ask for clarifications on specific issues and I'll see if I can help.

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32k
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Hi DB,

So basically, the assumption (since I don't adhere to Catholic Doctrine) that Peter was the Bishop of Rome and that tradition of the apostles was preserved by the succession of presbyters in the churches etc. is the crux of the argument?

If so, isn’t that kind of flimsy? What evidences are provided to back up this claim?
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DailyBread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:28 pm 
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32k wrote:
Hi DB,

So basically, the assumption (since I don't adhere to Catholic Doctrine) that Peter was the Bishop of Rome and that tradition of the apostles was preserved by the succession of presbyters in the churches etc. is the crux of the argument?

If so, isn’t that kind of flimsy? What evidences are provided to back up this claim?
I hope you don't expect me to type out the evidence for you here. If you do then I must, regrettably, disappoint you.

There are literally hundreds of excellent books that discuss the matter of apostolic succession, saint Peter in Rome, and the meaning of Tradition. Please seek one or two out at your local library or buy one from a book shop and I am sure you will receive an immediate return on investment - there's nothing like knowledge and information as a repayment for a time invested and few dollars.

Cheers

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32k
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:22 pm 
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Hi DB,

You're right in hoping that I didn't want you to type it out, because I don't expect that. This topic is far to big, however, can you suggest some volumes or books?
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DailyBread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:34 pm 
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I will give your request some thought but since I don't really know what you want and what kind of book you'd be happy to read it will take some time to make a recommendation. If you are looking for an apologetics style book that will argue n favour of Catholic positions while confronting Protestant views then ... well, I am not sure I want to get into it :-)

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32k
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:20 pm 
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DailyBread wrote:
If you are looking for an apologetics style book that will argue n favour of Catholic positions while confronting Protestant views then

Hi DB,

You read my mind because that's exactly what I'm looking for. Either that or a synopsis of Apostolic Tradition.

Quote:
... well, I am not sure I want to get into it :-)

You won't exactly be "getting into it" per se. Atleast in the sense of you yourself defending the position by typing objections. You'd just be advertising a book (or books) that I'm interested in.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:54 pm 
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I am not very familiar with Catholic apologetics literature; I can't make a good recommendation.

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dcljoy
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:51 pm 
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DB

yet you believe it? .....

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:23 pm 
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dcljoy wrote:
DB

yet you believe it? .....
I believe that gospel yet I am not an apologist. Does the astound you?

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dcljoy
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:08 pm 
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DB

not as you put it .... but from memory, you did not grow up in the RC church (and so could be excused for not knowing their apologetics, or even some of their beliefs) ... but you made a conscious choice as an adult to change to the RC church (please tell me if I am wrong) ....

If this is so, then I am indeed surprised that you do not know at least some of their apologetic material ... as I assumed you had made diligent enquiry, and on the basis of that, decided that the RC church was right in what they teach.

???

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:20 am 
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Regrettably in my last post I made some typos and did not correct them. What I meant to write is this:

    I believe the gospel yet I am not an apologist. Does that astound you?

I became a Catholic as an adult after having read a Catholic Catechism for adults called, "The Teaching of Christ", and also after having read the sacred scriptures prayerfully. Apologetics books were of no great significance in my conversion. I had been a Presbyterian before that, an elder elect in a congregation of the Presbyterian church. I decided that the faith taught in the Westminster Confession of Faith was not the faith of the apostles and that their teaching was not the teaching of Christ. That is not to say that they were bereft of gospel truth or of christian faith and the graces that accompany it. It was however insufficient for me, so I acted in good conscience and was received into the Catholic Church which I believe is the Christ of Christ and the apostles intact in faith, morals, truth, and Spirit.

You have your own reasons for holding to the faith that you hold, I do not expect you to change on my say so nor do I expect that what I write on this forum will promote change in your faith. I am content with what God has given to me, I hope you will respect that.

Cheers

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dcljoy
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:19 pm 
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DB

I just wanted clarification .... we are all different, and for me I have to explore what each side of the question says, so I do read everything I can lay my hands on - because I want to know.

However, I am astonished that you think the Westminster Confession of Faith is not grounded in the teaching of the Apostles - you would actually be hard put to defend that (except as a matter of faith of course). But it does mean what you mean by the teaching of the apostles ... as we have it in the NT then yes - but not if you include Church Tradition, which the RC church does.

As I said, I have asked because this is the Catholic part of the forum, I appreciate your restraint in the other parts of the the forum. As I appreciate you presence on this forum, it is always good to have another point of view.

BTW ... I very much like Peter Kreeft, who is a RC apologist (though of course, I don't like some of his conclusions :D )

in Christ

Dinah

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Hi dcljoy,

You wouldn't happen to know of good books on Apostolic Succession (whether apologetical or Synoptical) would you?

The reason being is because I'd like to see if it's worth being Catholic. If I ever did convert to Catholicism I would like to know if what I believe in has a high probability of being reliable.
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DogHouse
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:47 pm 
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32k wrote:
The reason being is because I'd like to see if it's worth being Catholic. If I ever did convert to Catholicism I would like to know if what I believe in has a high probability of being reliable.

Scott Hahn, who was Presbyterian Minister - now in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church is a good author to read about the journey across the Tiber. His journal of his journey into the Church is interesting, and he has a really good book on the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

The process of comming into full communion with the Church is through RCIA, which are classes on the faith instructed and practiced by the Church. THere is no obligation on anyone to come into the Church after attending.

I applaud anyone willing to take the effort to investigate, rather than to simply buy into all the mis-information that seems to exist about the RCC.

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