The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

I just break the deadlock of the millenia, shedding insight on "born from above" and you call it incomprehensible? Beating stalwarts like Augustine and Pelagius, Luther and Erasmus, Doghouse and Psychobobius et al, and I get "INCOMPREHENSIBLE"? Cmon, even Alexander's Gordian knot was falling off a wall in comparison. The Holy Spirit and me... our methodology just can't be beat.

Mebbe you should pull your head out of that stuffy monastery cubbyhole and smell the roses!

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

ain't got the time to research who said what nor have you proven any of them said this -- of course, i'm skimming thru much of this so may have missed it

of course, just because some ECF touted a view doesn't make it Gospel -- Origen, as 1 example, jacked up much -- so much of what that cat said has been examined & tossed aside

i have the Holy Spirit & the CONTEXT of the Passage is clear enough to me for the reasons Randy has shared -- you disagree, fine -- we'll have to agree to disagree -- same with your take on Cornelius

as for me, i was Saved long before i was ever water baptised -- my experience jives with my countless others' interpretation of the Word so why should i believe you?

So...presumably the Church Fathers who disagree with you did not have the Holy Spirit?

What about the thought that one who can complete a Master's Degree in Theology possesses the Holy Spirit, whereas one who cannot...? Do we believe those that demonstrate themselves qualified to instruct and pastorially lead others can do so because of the Holy Spirit, or in spite of the Holy Spirit?

...who are "my countless others" in your post?

The only reason I should believe you is that you can demonstrate that your discernment is authorized or dervied from some basis of authority, other than "because I said so"...

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

never implied that -- my pt is my view is on solid ground -- i accept that others may have a diff take -- i basically said this very thing in the rest of that paragraph so i have no idea why you made such an unsubstantiated leap

Paul was a learned man whereas Peter was not -- me thinks they both did ok in their respective teaching ministries -- God Uses us where we're @ -- He may Direct more education for this 1 but not that 1 -- a degree does not guarantee the person is more spiritual nor a better interpreter of the Word -- it merely ups the probability for "success" imo

most Protestants

whether you believe me or not is irrelevant as far as i'm concerned -- Acts 17:11 applies to every post in here

When the Israelites sinned by worshipping idols, God sent foreign armies against them and they faced His wrath through these armies.

63“It shall come about that as the LORD delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it. 64“Moreover, the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. Deut 28

Here is what Rabbi Moses ben Maimon (Maimonides) thinks about idol worship, in his “Guide to the Perplexed”:

Quote
No one actually believes that idols are gods; he states that idol-worshippers understood that their idols were only representations of a god, or God. Idols are "worshipped in respect of its being an image of a thing that is an intermediary between ourselves and God."

http://www.experiencefestival.com/guide ... ons/page/2


Other views about idolatory:

Quote
Behaviour considered idolatrous or potentially idolatrous may include the creation of any type of image of the deity, or of other figures of religious significance such as prophets, saints, and clergy, the creation of images of any person or animal at all, and the use of religious symbols, or secular ones. In addition, theologians have extended the concept to include giving undue importance to aspects of religion other than God, or to non-religious aspects of life in general, with no involvement of images specifically. For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship...Man commits idolatry whenever he honours and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money etc." [3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

In Jesus' time, the Jews realised that they were about to face God's wrath again in the form of defeat and exile, all the indications and warning signs already having been felt, although they were not sure what their “idol worship” had taken form of:

1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4“Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13

Some sought to escape this wrath by being marked as “not sinners” by John's baptism. But John turned them away, considering them not to be even true followers of God, notwithstanding their blood connection to Abraham.

To receive John's baptism of water, recognition of the idealism they held, they had to show the fruit:

11And he would answer and say to them, "The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise." Luke 3

The believers in Antioch had this recognition from John.

Similarly to receive Jesus' baptism of the Spirit, the follower of God had to believe that in Jesus work on the Cross, idealism was empowered, made practically possible, by the giving of the Spirit:

2He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Acts 19

This is what is meant to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit: a recognition that the follower of God has understood the fruit of Jesus work on the Cross.

Strangely, you can believe in the giving of the Holy Spirit through the death and ascension of Jesus, but you can still lack the baptism of water.

It's like an immigrant who loves the American Dream, get to be a citizen, but finds out some of its requirements don't resonate with his wishes. He makes a bomb and turns against the Land of his adoption. This man is in danger of being indicted for falling foul of newly proposed law which can revoke that citizenship and lead to deportation.

20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 2 Peter 2 (Matt 12:44, 45)

Examples, Ananaias and Sapphira, Simon the Sorcerer.

BTW, God is glorified (made significant in the lives of men) by the observation of His work in events, and in PEOPLE:

8But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.Matt 9

13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. Acts 4

I probabaly have more grease embedded under my pinky than what you have in all the extremities of your limbs, even if you include toes!

I remember working on the Basrah-Mosul railroad line and attending a bible study where the moderator was a driver of one of the tractors we had sold the client, and the director of the company sat with us pew warmers. Man, what a lesson we learned that night!

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

I believe that those who are blessed to pastorially lead should use those gifts for the faithful.

All a degree demonstrates is that those gifts have been tested and found valid by an accredited authority, as opposed to an individual thumping his chest and claiming a monopoly of the truth "...just because..."

Thus, when a student completes the degree requirements of a theological seminary, that represents the seminary approving the skills demonstrated by the graduate. A Church, seeking a pastor or ministerial leader, may use that imprimatur of the seminary to establish that the graduate is indeed qualified for a ministerial leadership position that may involve the instruction of others.

When we see examples of people "examining Apostolic truth against Scriptures", do we not realize that in all cases, we are talking about an examination of that truth against rabbinical law, and that the examiners had to be qualified to do that, and weren't just some "Tom, Dick, and Harry"'s who decided to unroll the scrolls and have a go at this task on their own?

I am having a little trouble seeing the relevance of this topic to the current discussion...

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

DogHouse -- am down with those Called to seek as much education as they can -- as the Spirit Leads, of course

so how did Peter, a fisherman, make do? -- is it your position that only those who attend some form of seminary may teach?

can God Reveal the Word to a pewster or does He only do so thru a "pastor"?

Randy, tradition is indeed of utmost importance to the Catholic, for how else would one know they are receiving the Christian Faith? The faith that has been handed on to us from Christ and the Apostles is the most important thing we have. This handing on of the faith is what we call tradition. St. Paul plainly tells us to “…stand fast and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.” (cf. 2 Thes 2:15). Again St. Paul, knowing the end of his life was drawing near (cf 2 Tim 4:6-8), instructs St. Timothy, one of the Church’s earliest bishops, “what you have heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.” (2 Tim 2:2). St. Paul is instructing St. Timothy to pass on the faith to others who will then continue to pass it on. We call this sacred Tradition. Again St. Paul says “faith then comes by hearing.” (cf Rom 3:5)

Incidentally, Jesus never commanded his Apostles to write anything down, with the lone exception of St. John’s vision in the Apocalypse (cf Rev. 1:11). The faith therefore was commanded to be preached and taught. After the Apostles followed the Lord’s command to teach all men the truth, some of them, along with some of their students, were inspired by the Holy Spirit to actually write narratives of the life of Jesus. We call these the Gospels. In other words, the Gospels are the written Tradition of the Church.

So why do we place importance on the faith of the early Christians and leaders of the early Church? Because they show us the same faith we hold and profess today was also held and believed by those who received instruction from the Apostles themselves, and passed it on to their successors.

I think this discussion got off topic so perhaps we should start another link on the sacrament of baptism and get back to the issue of man’s free will. Before I end, let me just finish my comments on baptism by answering Paco’s question. The burden of proof is really on those who deny baptism (with water) regenerates, for it is easily demonstrated from Scripture and the constant Tradition of the Church, from the beginning, that baptism regenerates man. In the King James version of the Bible alone, the word baptism (or baptized, baptizeth, baptizes, baptizing) appears over 100 times. If you count the title “the Baptist” given to John, you could add another 15.

It was foreshadowed in the Old Testament on numerous occassions:

- The first creation came from the earth which was covered with water and the Spirit hovered over the waters. From the water emerged land and man and God’s first creation. (cf Gen 1:1-2)

- Water is used to create a new humanity with Noah through water and the Spirit. The ark went through the water and a dove, representing the Spirit, hovered overhead. St. Peter said this represented baptism, which “now saves us.” (1 Peter 3:18:21)

- Israel was created through water of the Red Sea with the cloud and first of the Holy Spirit overhead. (cf. Ex 14; 1 Cor 10:1-4)

- Naaman, the Syrian is made anew and cleansed from leprosy by dipping himself seven times in the waters of the Jordan River (cf. II Kings 5:5-14)

- The Prophet Ezekiel describes the New Covenant by saying we shall be sprinkled clean with water and the Spirit (cf. Ez 36:25). He also describes his vision of water flowing from the temple, and that every living create which the water touches “shall live.” (cf. Ez 47)

The Old Testament foreshadowings are fulfilled in the New Testament Baptism and the Coming of Grace through Christ.

- “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” (Mk 16:16)

- Jesus, before saying we must be “born of water and the Spirit” (cf. Jn 3:5) had just gone down into the water of the Jordan and the Spirit came and landed on his head. (cf. Jn 1:29)

- When Jesus finished telling Nicodemus that we must be born again of “water and the Spirit” what does Jesus do? He goes with His disciples to the Jordan and they baptize! (cf. Jn 4:1)

- We are told specifically that water flowed from the side of Christ at His crucifixion. (cf. Jn 19:34)

We have the teaching of the Apostles, who specifically state one must be baptized.

“…be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38)

“Whereunto baptism, being of the like form, now saves you also…” (1 Pt 3:21)

“Rise up and be baptized and wash away your sins, invoking his name.” (Acts 22:16)

“…he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and the renovation of the Holy Ghost.” (Titus 3:5)

Oremus pro invicem,
Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

I believe I have provided reasonable support for the view that baptism of water is recognition from the Body of Christ that a person has faith that God desires His children to be righteous.

I also believe that I have given sufficient support for the view that baptism of the Spirit is recognition by the Body of Christ that a person has understood that Jesus' death and ascension has won for man the empowerment to work the works of God.

But there will be surprises on the day when Jesus comes again, not as savior but as judge, and those without the baptism of water will be relegated to the outer darkness :


Matthew 7:21-23 NASB

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

In summary, Man contributes the desire to do good, God provides the empowerment to those who so desire. Debunking both the RC and the Reformed view of synergism, its presence or absence, and its workings.

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

Paco,

I never did post any of the Church Fathers to show the continuity of the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles right up to today. Here are a few though:

St. Barnabas – a companion of St. Paul - you can read about him in Acts
"Let us further inquire whether the Lord took any care to foreshadow the water of baptism and the cross. Concerning the water, indeed, it is written, in reference to the Israelites, that they should not receive that baptism which leads to the remission of sins, but should procure another for themselves…Mark how He has described at once both the water and the cross. For these words imply, Blessed are they who, placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water…This means, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear of God and trust in Jesus in our spirit." [Epistle of Barnabas, 11 (c. 75 A.D)]

Hermas of Rome – mentioned by St. Paul (Romans 16:14)
"And I said, 'I heard, sir, some teachers say that there is no other repentance than what takes place when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'That was sound doctrine you heard, for that is really the case.'” [The Shepherd of Hermas, 2:4:3 (c. 80 A.D.)]

St. Justin Martyr – converted to Christianity in 130 A.D.
"Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” [First Apology 61 (c. 151 A.D.)]

St. Irenaeus – student of St. Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John the Apostle
“And dipped himself,” says the Scripture, “seven times in Jordan.” (2 Kings 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Unless a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” [Fragments 34, (c. 190 A.D.)]

I could go on and on, but here are a few others if you want to look them up and read them for yourself.
Tertullian (A.D. 203) – On Baptism 12:1
Hippolytus (A.D. 215) – The Apostolic Tradition 21:16
Recognitions of Clement (A.D. 221) – 6:9
Origen (A.D. 248) – Commentaries on Romans 5:9 (I know you say you don't like him, but he did teach much orthodoxy)
St. Cyrian (A.D. 252) – Epistles 72 /73:21
Clementine Recognitions (A.D. 320) – 6:9
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (A.D. 350) – Catechetical Lectures 3:4
St. Athanasius (A.D. 360) – Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26:33
St. Basil (A.D. 375) – The Holy Spirit 15:35
St. Gregory of Nazianz (A.D. 381) – Orations 40:7-8
St. Gregory of Nyssa (A.D. 382) – Eunomius 2:8
St. Ambrose (A.D. 387) – On Abraham 2:11-79-84
St. Augustine (A.D. 408) – Letters 98:2

Additionally, if you want something more authoritative than individual Fathers, the Council of Carthage of 256 A.D. also declared:
“And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ Thus, unless they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but wil be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.” (256 A.D.)

The continuity of the teaching on baptism in Christianity continues from the Apostles to the 16th century, when a couple of guys decided that Jesus did not really mean what He said and that every Christian from the time of Christ up until their time (1500 years later) had gotten this wrong. (Zwingli was actually bold enough to state that!)

So I ask of you, again: Can you provide one single Father, from either the Eastern Church or the Western Church, who lived from 33 A.D. until the 16th century, who interpreted John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism?

Given the importance of baptism, as seen from the works of the Fathers and the decrees by the early Councils pertaining to it (not to mention the architectural wonders that were built to administer the sacrament - think of the great St. John Lateran), surely there would be writings of Christians who wrote it was all unneccessary???

I look forward to reading your findings.

Oremus pro invicem,
Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

Your comment brings to mind the reply King Jesus offered the original "tradition keepers"....

“You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God." Matt 22:29

From the right hand of the Father Jesus commands Paul,

And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do." (Acts 9:4-6)

And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.’ (Acts 22:10)

The Holy Spirit through Ananias confirms Paul's divine appointment.

And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth. For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.” (Acts 22:14-15)

In his letter to the church at Corinth Paul confirms his writings are a command from the Lord.

If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (I Cor 14:37)

Conclusion ---> Christ never commanded His Apostles to write anything down, except the one instance when He instructed St. John to write down his vision in Rev. 1:11.

...I concur...well stated.



Conclusion ---> The things to which St. Paul was writing the Corinthians about, namely prophesy, the role of women in the Church, etc., these "things" are instructions from the Lord. The writing of a letter to the Corinthians was not a command of the Lord.

...I concur...well stated again, and thank you for making my point.

Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

First Vatican Council (1869-1870)

These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the Church.



So Paul wrote a letter that your church has "infallibly" declared God to be the author of without being commanded by the Lord to do so??

So which of the following is in error?

A. The Apostle Paul

B. The First Vatican Council

C. Campion

Conclusion : You obviously disagree with one of your denominations official teachings.

Samson,

I answer D, none of the above. For I said Christ never commanded any of His Apostles to write anything down, with the exception of the vision shown to St. John in the Apocalypse (cf Rev. 1:11). The random scripture passages you cited do not state Christ asking the Apostles to write anything down, but only confirm my assertion. If you disagree, please cite the chapter and verse whereby Christ specifically commanded an Apostle to write something down.

In citing St. Paul's epistle, it is clear you do not have an understanding of what inspired means. Again, your reference to his 1st letter to the Corinthians only proves my point. No where in that letter does St. Paul say Christ commanded Him to write a letter. Rather, the instructions which are contained within it, those "things" St. Paul is telling them, they are mandated by God.

Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

& i'll tell you again, ain't got the time nor the inclination to answer your request -- i've read the comments you posted (thanks) & disagree with their interpretation -- even the Apostles got it wrong from time to time as they were NOT infallible (including your 1st Pope) -- so i've taken your comments under advisement -- besides, it may have zero to do with the OP, assuming anyone remembers what it was...

somehow i doubt this is an objective stmt but hey