The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

tonks wrote:


Hi tonks,

I have found it helpful to view all produce (bread, grapes, wine, wheat, gold, silver, precious stones, sons!) mentioned in the Bible to mean interpretations, doctrine. Fire, light, day, light on the other hand would mean the original texts dealing with those doctrines, the teachings of the Apostles and the Prophets, of whom Christ is the Chief Cornerstone..

So when Jesus says “children” here, He means interpretation:

37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Matt 23

So we will be judged by what we conclude, because that in turn will determine how effective we are, not in evangelising, but in reiterating God's Word.

11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17

18“When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. Eze 3

4Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.’ 5“Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6‘I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.’” Eze 37

6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 1 Cor 3

11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. Isa 55

10"And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. Matt 25

1Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. Is 55

3"He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD. Deut 8

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

...So...define "believe" as it is used in that verse...go back and use the Koine Greek version of it, if you want...post it for me to consider...

...no need, this is simply how these discussions tend to run...I'm finding everyone particpating to be of considerable value and behaving quite civilly...

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

...actually, I said that the Ancient communions believe it was varying degrees of both, without disclosing which communion believed which way, and suggested that an Eastern Orthodox poster would be more valuable to discuss that topic with...

...for this reason...

...yes, I have heard this one before...so, ministers are held to a different standard than everyone else, and are accountable to God not only for their own actions, but for the actions of every [erson in their flock?...contrary to the idea that each soul is accountable for their own actions to God. Surely, you don't mean to do that, do you...?

Paul is speaking of actions and choices, in light of the foundation of a profession of faith...for each and every individual. Speaking of testing those actions and choices, he uses the imagery of fire, which the Jews would have understood being for the purposes of purification (they knew enough back then that burning a cooking vessel, for example, would keep people from getting sick from any food served in it subsequently; it would be sterilized...) to describe the resolution of temporal punishments - the temporal consequences of sin (stubble, sticks, wood) that eventually pass or are resolved by God's grace acting upon those offended.

..define the "loss"...what does the minister "lose"? If he is savd, what does he "lose"? Anyway you define this...your definition will look like "temporal punishments" they way I have defined them in previous posts in this thread...

...then let just strip them from the Scripts...

...what then does it support? Nothing?

...then why is this instruction in Scriptures? ...Twice...?

What do these two verse mean to your sotoriology and/or Christology? What are Matt and Luke telling us here in their Gospel messages?

Just to be fair and clear...what I am saying is that Jesus paid for the sin, completely and sufficiently, and for all time, but Jesus does not remove the consequence of that sin.

Paul instructs this quite clearly in 1 Cor 3, and contrasts the difference between the eternal and the temporal effects of sin.

The foundation he is speaking of is our belief in Jesus. The "work" he is speaking of are our actions and choices - either in fidelity to that belief, or our choices of sin, when we are not true to it. Testing will reveal the work, and if what is built is "burned up", that worker will suffer a loss, but be saved, as through fire (the NIV has a horrible translation of this, in my opinion). The "loss" is the resolution, the serving of, temporal punishments for all that straw, hay and stubble we heap upon the foundation of Jesus with our sin choices.

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

As Luther was the one who held himself as an authority primal to the auhtority of the Church, I feel that he should have done a better job to see to it that his authorized instructions as said prime authority be consistent with the very Scripture from which he claims to be teaching.

...and you were taught this...by whom? Or, is this an invented methodology?

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

I've been a believer for more than 40 years and a student of scripture just as long, but that's a new one on me too.

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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29

...how's The Tide gonna do this weekend? I am an Oklahoma State Alum, and Miles was there before he was at LSU. The way he exited the program in Stillwater left a bad taste in everybody's mouth, so I tend to pull for "not LSU"...

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..."Absence of evidence" is not "Evidence of absence"...

Your green-ness shows. Around here, its not the ad homs you need to worry about, It's The Hammer ("shudder"):

23Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?Jeremiah 23

BTW, how many lumps do you take?

4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

5and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

6FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”

7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?Hebrews 12

11My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof, Proverbs 3

How the world distorts the teachings from the Word of God ("sigh"):
"The beatings will continue until morale improves.” Bligh

Keep in mind that "sin" normally refers to wrong doctrine:

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN.” 27This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

ROTFLOL!

He don't know you very well, Doghouse, do he?

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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29

Hi Euty, long time no see!

What shall we discuss, a specific text or the methodology?

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Sam

All Scripture references from the NASB unless otherwise indicated.

I'm going with the latter, an invented methodology.

Have a liesurely weekend and Roll Tide! (Saw your comments to Eutychus...I'm an Alabama alum)

Oremus pro invicem,
Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

I'll be pulling for Alabama this Saturday just like I do for all their games, with the EXCEPTION of the Iron Bowl.

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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29

Hi Sam! Should I know you by a different handle somewhere else?

There was a time I would have liked using "Footwasher" as a handle because I was a Free Will Baptist until I was 34 in 1986.

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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29

Paco,

I happened to be reading Augustine right now in my liesure so you'll probably see me post lots of quotations from him on here.

What is the new path you wish to explore?

Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

Tonks,

I never read where you address the clearest proof of the temporal punishment for sin, which is death. If you deny the temporal punishment for sin, please explain how you plan on getting around death. Man suffers death because of sin, specifically original sin (cf Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). However, even the forgiven will at some point die. In other words, there still remains a consequence for our sin, even after our sins are forgiven.

Oremus pro invicem,
Campion

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Contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere. - St. Thomas Aquinas

Do you include the deaths of stillborn, small babies and those with mental handicaps as a punishment for "sin"?

I understand death as a curse due to Adams' sin, not as a payment.

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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29