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Hi Andrew/Catholica

Thanks for your encouraging words. God be with you.

Cheers.

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

Mary was a good Christian. IMHO that's all. In Luke 1:28 Gabriel uses the term "highly favored" (NKJV) or "favored one" (NET). The NET Bible adds this note to the term,



The term itself is used by Paul of all believers in Ephesians 1:6 and translated "accepted" (NKJV) "freely bestowed" (NET [I believe]).

Mary's obedience counts well for Mary but her obedience gains nothing for others. Also, even as an obedient believer she was still in need of a Savior (Luke 1:47). I believe that Mark 3:21, when contextually understood along with 3:31-32, points to Mary and Jesus brothers ( a aubject for another thread perhaps) thinking He was "out of His mind" as BTW argued the Pharisees (Mark 3:22-30). If this is true (and I doubt any practicing Catholic would agree it is even if it fits contextually), then wouldn't that at least be one sin committed by Mary? (I digress! Sorry.)

Anyway, my point is that it is the obedience of Christ and His position in Heaven (Hebrews 7-9, esp 8:6 & 9:15) which makes Him the mediator. None other has that postion.

(Bolding and underlining mine for emphasis)

Why then would I want to pray to Mary, Paul, John, Peter or any other of my fellow men when I have the privelidge to speak directly to God (the Father) through (mediation) God (the Son) by God (the Holy Spirit)? They (i.e. Mary, John, Paul, Peter) are not high priests in the order of Melchidezek (which means "King of Righteousness"). Only Christ is! (see Hebrews 7:17-26)

The quote from James 5:16 contextually applies to the living praying for their living brothers and sisters.

Blessings,
Randy

That was interesting Randy, but exactly what did it have to do with the quote from me that you included in your message?

Cheers

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

(snip, Off topic)


(Re-bolded and emphasized for my emphasis)

Mary is making intercession for us, just like it says here - We are told to make intercessions. This scripture supports that we should ask others in the Body of Christ to pray for us. Mary is in the Body of Christ. Thus we can ask Mary to intercede.


Lots of people ask other people to prayer for them. I don't see what the problem is? Are you ever going to ask anyone to pray for you again? Why? See 1 Timothy 2:1-6!


Those in heaven are alive, agreed? Eternal life.

-Andre

Gosh,
I love to listen to the operatic "Ave Maria" at Christmas. I don't listen to it as theology or dogma. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was one special, blessed young woman!

I think many believers over the years have identified with her as a feminine and friendly saint who is more approachable than a wrathful, masculine God.
I can't subscribe to what this had led to--bad theology-- but when you consider that most Christians (and all people) throughout most of history have been illiterate and somewhat superstitious peasants, it's easy to see how it arose.....

God Bless and Merry Christmas season to all.
Serendipity

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Agreed, but I'm not having conversations with them daily. They do not interceed for me in the position of a mediator. As I pointed out earlier, there is nothing in the Bible which contextually calls for us to pray to or for those who are asleep (physically dead). Any interpretation which renders this as a Biblical teaching, such as your underlining above of 1 Tim. 2:1-6, is a stretch at best. Of course Tradition and Catholic dogma is evidently different.


That is not what it says. Paul is speaking to those physically still alive.

To have fellow brothers and sisters in Christ pray for you is Biblically correct. Notice I said pray and not mediate. There is a difference. As I said before, context drives the understanding of prayer of those physically alive.

Daily Bread,



You stated that Mary's obedience should count for something. I agree that it counts for her. I would even go so far as to say that she (as well as Deborah, Rahab, Ruth and several others) is a great example for the faithful to folllow. But, IMHO, it does not elevate her above any other believer and we should never pray to or for another believer who is "asleep" (physically dead-until the resurrection).

Serendipity,


There are a great deal of well educated Catholics who follow and practice this and many other forms of elevated "Maryology". I agree with Dinah that this elevation of mere humans does nothing but detract from the person and work of Christ. IMO this would horrify Mary herself as well as the first century Apostles.

Blessings,
Randy

Just wanted to toss in a comment about praying to departed saints.

The notion that the departed righteous intercede on behalf of God's people on earth did not merely arise out of a void.



So, when we insist to our Catholic friends that praying to (or perhaps more properly, through) the departed saints has no foundation in the Bible, we need to recognize that it does, in fact, have a firm foundation in this passage which Catholics (and Orthodox) believe is part of the Bible.

"Serendipity,

Serendipity wrote:but when you consider that most Christians (and all people) throughout most of history have been illiterate and somewhat superstitious peasants, it's easy to see how it arose.
There are a great deal of well educated Catholics who follow and practice this and many other forms of elevated "Maryology". I agree with Dinah that this elevation of mere humans does nothing but detract from the person and work of Christ. IMO this would horrify Mary herself as well as the first century Apostles.

Blessings,
Randy"

Gee Randy, I was agreeing with you!
I was talking about origins. The RCC values traditions and this one goes way back, and is not without precedent. I don't know Mary personally, so I would not presume to speak for her as being "horrified." I disagree with the RCC Marian Dogmas...
S

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Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,"
behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION" --
The apostle Paul, NASB

Randy, you are of course welcome to choose who you will ask to pray for you. I reckon I can do the same.

Personally speaking, I like to ask Mary to pray for me as well as Saint Vincent de Paul, Saint Thomas More, Saint Anthony and many other saints, but you need not follow my practise.

Cheers

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

Jesus is the vine, we are the branches, we remain branches in heaven. What do you expect to be doing when you are in heaven? You are still in the Body of Christ. Would you not continue to pray for those who have not yet finished the race?

You are right when you bring up Sacred Tradition. That is a big difference between the Catholic Christian faith and non-Catholic Christian faiths - the Catholic Church bases everything on the teaching of Jesus to the apostles and their successors, not the Bible alone. That is how the Catholic Church determined the canon of NT scripture and gave you the Bible - through the Truth they were given when the church was given the Holy Spirit and by the guidance of that same spirit. Other non-Catholic faiths have just one product of that relationship between the Church and Christ, that being the Bible. But those same faiths have at least 1500 years of time between themselves and an authentic understanding of what the true interpretation of scripture is.

If you don't believe me, measure what you believe about praying to the saints to what the early Church Fathers believed. Surely there must be a great number of people who shared your sentiment that we should not pray for the intercession of saints. These were great thinkers, not simpletons, people who sacrificed their lives for their faith.


He is speaking to those still alive, but how do you know that the good practice of interceding for others can't also apply also to those alive in heaven?


In order to understand you better, could you explain your understanding of the difference between being a mediator and interceding for someone?

God Bless, Andre

The Bible does not tell us to ask those who have died to pray for us. It tells us Paul asked the living to pray for him (Ephesians 6:19). It tells us that Christians here on earth prayed for each other (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). Therefore, it is obvious that we can certainly ask living Christians to pray for us and we should certainly pray for others on this earth.

Rom. 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. The Bible also tells us that Jesus prays for us (Heb. 7:25). Why would the prayers of a dead person mean more to the first person of the Trinity than those of the second and third persons of the Triune God? Does the RC Church think they are lacking in some way? Why would the prayers of a dead person be needed?

The Bible also tells us that Jesus is the one and only mediator between God and men (1 Tim. 2:5). Because the Bible tells us there is NO other mediator between us and God, why does the Roman Catholic Church insist that there is? Why do they elevate Mary and other dead people to the role? Why do they deny what the Bible says? Clearly, naming Jesus the only mediator automatically excludes Mary and everybody else in heaven, be they saints (and I use that word in the Biblical way to mean all believers, not just a select few) who have passed on before us or angels, from the role. Why doesn't the RCC teach what the Bible says?

And did it never occur to the Roman Catholic that placing Mary and other people who have left this earth in the role of Christ is nothing but idolatry?

The Bible gives us NO examples of people in heaven praying on the behalf of the living. The Bible gives us NO instructions re: asking Mary or any other people in heaven to pray for us. In fact, it speaks out AGAINST communication with those who have died in Lev. 20:27 and Deut. 18:10-13. Talking to the dead is necromancy. It's an occultic practice. Why does the RCC teach a demonic practice that the Bible condemns?

As a Christian, filled with the Holy Spirit, I am invited to go into the throne room of God with confidence that he will meet me with mercy and grace (Heb. 14:16). Since I have access to God himself, why would I need to talk to a dead person to obtain it, especially given that the Bible condemns necromancy?

Sorry for the delay in responding to the above more completely; my previous response was only partial.

The notes that you included from the NET bible no doubt reflect the avowedly evangelical character of the work; which I respect but do not share. One of my own bibles has a different note for the passage which presents a different perspective. The notes in any bible are no more authoritative than the opinions of the scholars or pastors who wrote them. Such notes are not inspired and as such do not bind the conscience of Christians.

If you own a New Jerusalem Bible or have access to one that contains the translator's notes it may be worth your while checking the passage. In my copy the note is on Page 1687 and it is labelled "s".

My Christian Community Bible says "Rejoice, full of grace, the Lord is with you." and it contains a brief note saying "The word used in the gospel means specifically: beloved and favoured. Other people have been loved, chosen, favoured: but in this instance it becomes the very name of Mary."

There is a rich literature treating of this angelic visitation to Mary which we call the annunciation. Even the internet contains a number of useful resources; use google and look them up if you are interested; you could try the Catholic Encyclopaedia entry under "The Annunciation".

Cheers

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

What does the New Jerusalem say for Ephesian 1:6 where the same root word is used for a much broader group of people?

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Marv
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Ephesians 1:6 NJB to the praise of the glory of his grace, his free gift to us in the Beloved,

Why would the root word be of direct significance here? In Luke 1.28 we have κεχαριτωμένη· and in Ephesians 1.6 we have ἐχαρίτωσεν ( I hope the Greek characters survive ). They both have the same root but different foliage; the same genus but different species

Cheers

_________________
The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

DB:

The forms in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6 are of the exact same verb. The only difference is in the tense: the latter is aorist while the former is perfect.

What you're proposing would be akin to making a difference between "walk" and "walked" or between "give" and "gave." The difference is purely grammatical.