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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

My in-laws go to a KJV only church. The sad thing is that many adherents to this view truly believe that everyone from John Calvin to Jonathan Edwards to John MacArthur are literally "not saved". Wycliff Bible Translators are out of the will of God because if they truly wanted to do mission work in accordance with God's will they would teach English on the mission field and then convert these new English speakers with the KJV. Believe it or not, that view is actually out there. Truly sad.

I've been to such a church too. The did not preach that others were not saved, just that anyone using another version was wrong.

I did hear the preacher say over the pulpit that anyone not using the KJV was not welcome at the church.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

I actually pastor a church that was KJVonly (not in doctrine, but in practice/preaching/teaching/reading,etc). I was told when I came here that I should only use the KJV, but have found ways to "undermine" this false faith. Over time the church by and large no longer uses KJV, but I still occasionally refer to it. I was intentional in my "undermining", but also tried to be as loving, gentle and patient as possible, while still encouraging towards reading different translations. I've hit hard the point that all translations are just that...translations. And therefore they all need updating, rethinking, re-evaluating, critiquing, etc. I encourage people to study and to bring differing translations to our weekly Bible Study and to discuss some of the nuances of the versions and why at certain times certain ones may be more illuminating (or less) than others. I find that the best critique is the critique offered in genuine love...at least that has been my experience (and this is coming from someone that has a father-in-law that is a KJV-only preacher, whom I love and we can discuss anything).

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Everyone is equal at the foot of the cross...just some are more equal than others.
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I appreciate your pastoral approach. I have sometimes been so wise. Actually. one of my more persuasive statements was that I could cut 3-5 minutes off of every sermon if I did not have to explain the KJV and could just work from the Greek and the NIV. It is also quite true.

It did take time - for people to realize that I was very serious about preaching the Word of God - and that I preach from a translation in the language with which we speak to one another - because I so desperately want them to understand God's Word.

John

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"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn

M:

Well, Hills doesn't go as far as to say that the KJV is inspired or perfect. But yes, he does have a very strong view of it.

It's contemporary writers such as Ruckman who would be identified as being closer to that position, I think.

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Read the Bible prayerfully.For a wealth of sound theology, go to John 3:16.
(My wife and I are very much in love, by the way.)
I don't like extremes of temperature. I don't like extremes among preachers. People maybe think I'm extreme.But never mind about me
A true Christian is different, and the world will notice the difference.Even your tattoo, if it's faith related, it's different!

Hills won't use the word inspired, but his position is really the same thing. He seems to rely on a literalistic reading that if a word isn't there, the meaning of the word must not be either.

What word would you coin for a position that whenever the translators of the KJV take the Latin over the Greek text that that was a providential correcting of a mistake in the Greek?

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Marv
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I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I think it is kind of ironic for a KJV-only-er to argue the KJV should be used in Roman Catholicism, since the textual material for the KJV came from Roman Catholic sources (Erasmus especially - who apparently included the Greek text of what would become known as the Receptus to show the superiority of the Latin).

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Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

Marv:

Well, I think that the term Ecclesiastical Text might cover it. The theory of the Ecclesiastical Text was developed by the late Theodore Letis, and he was a student of Hills. In some ways it's similar to Dean Burgon's championing of the KJV because Scripture quotes from the Church Fathers were nearer the KJV's form of text than that of the Latin Vulgate, and so, supposedly, the Church Fathers and their also supposedly proto-Anglican ecclesiology, were a source of very great authority to Burgon for both text and ecclesiology.

Whereas other students of the text would say that the significance of the quotes from the Church Fathers and the form of the text which they evidence, is the fact that they give evidence to the form of the text before them, without getting into ecclesiology.

_________________
Read the Bible prayerfully.For a wealth of sound theology, go to John 3:16.
(My wife and I are very much in love, by the way.)
I don't like extremes of temperature. I don't like extremes among preachers. People maybe think I'm extreme.But never mind about me
A true Christian is different, and the world will notice the difference.Even your tattoo, if it's faith related, it's different!

psycho:

You raise an interesting point: it does need to be remembered that the Greek textual editions prepared by Erasmus, and subsequently used by the Reformers in their various Bible translations, was to justify the emmendations to Erasmus' revised edition of the Latin Vulgate.

_________________
Read the Bible prayerfully.For a wealth of sound theology, go to John 3:16.
(My wife and I are very much in love, by the way.)
I don't like extremes of temperature. I don't like extremes among preachers. People maybe think I'm extreme.But never mind about me
A true Christian is different, and the world will notice the difference.Even your tattoo, if it's faith related, it's different!

No, I think that's quite different, Hill doesn't appeal to Church Fathers at all that I've seen. He appeals to intervention by God. And you know it's correct because it's in the KJV it doesn't matter what another text says, it doesn't matter what a church fathers says. It only matter what the KJV says because God divinely corrected all texts in the production of the KJV.

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Marv
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Marv:

It wasn't Hills who developed the concept of the Ecclesiastical Text, but Letis. But Letis's mindset was arguably influenced by Hills, whose student he was.

In the end it means some sort of assent to the combined influence of mediaeval canon law and the mediaeval Schoolmen, whose authoritariansim caused them to stand above the text of Scripture. I'm not sure, though, that this is clearly seen in Hills.

_________________
Read the Bible prayerfully.For a wealth of sound theology, go to John 3:16.
(My wife and I are very much in love, by the way.)
I don't like extremes of temperature. I don't like extremes among preachers. People maybe think I'm extreme.But never mind about me
A true Christian is different, and the world will notice the difference.Even your tattoo, if it's faith related, it's different!

Ms Carol:

It can be hard to get through to people sometimes, especially if their misconception is through a lack of historical perspective.

But often if their heart is right, then gentle conversation around the periphery of the subject can be contructive, still., right?

Take care.

_________________
Read the Bible prayerfully.For a wealth of sound theology, go to John 3:16.
(My wife and I are very much in love, by the way.)
I don't like extremes of temperature. I don't like extremes among preachers. People maybe think I'm extreme.But never mind about me
A true Christian is different, and the world will notice the difference.Even your tattoo, if it's faith related, it's different!

I read all posts on KJV-onlyism with great interest. Is there a definitive list of errors/corrections applicable to KJV (other than to answer "any modern translation" )?

If you are looking for a version which was prepared for the specific reason of correcting/making more accurate the KJV - you have several examples to compare:

1. The New King James
2. The English Standard Version
3. The New Revised Standard Version
4. The New American Standard Bible

If you are looking for a version which puts clarity above similarity to the KJV, but will sometimes follow the KJV if that translation is clear, perhaps the NIV or the NET would be appropriate. The Holman Christian Standard and perhaps the NEB/REB also fit in this category.

If you wanted only one version to compare - perhaps the ESV would be the answer. but if you can afford 2 - I would definitely get NIV, HCSB, or the NET. I am a convinced NIV user - though I refer to the NET frequently.

John

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"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn