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Proverbs 31

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barbara page

Post subject: Proverbs 31

Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:03 pm

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:33 pm
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Name of your church: First Evangelical Free Church of McKeesport

I've been studying Proverbs 31 for a number of years now and appreciate what bible.org has done for this study so far. I found a link to this resource on the topic - http://bible.org/seriespage/model-marriage My problem now is that I still need a venue and a 'board' to help answer some questions on this topic. Is this the right place?

The Following moved from another thread. This is a better place to discuss this topic. Thanks, RTCrudgi

Finally! Some place where some discussion can take place with others interested in the topic.

I've been doing an on-again/off-again study of proverbs 31 and just recently realized that the whole chapter could have been written by Bathsheba. (if Lemuel is another name for Solomon) The notes accompanying the net bible and proverbs 31 are really not 'open' to the possibility that the chapter was written by Bathsheba to Solomon. But the study of other commentaries online seem more apt to support this idea.

I love possibilities that come from this! This would make proverbs 31 the only chapter in the Bible written (and transcribed, probably) by a woman...

Last edited by RTCrudgi on Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

Added content discussed on another thread. Discussion over this applies to the subject matter better here.

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dcljoy

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:33 pm

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Well it could be a possibility, be don't think there is any way of knowing.

What we do have is wisdom for living written by men and women - how good is that!

I used to hate that section of Proverbs - it laid the greatest guilt trip on me. I think in part it was because I read the Bible too literally. Over the years God has taught me how what Proverbs 31 describes can work out in our time and world.

Not because I am now a "Proverbs 31 woman" - that hasn't changed - but I have a friend who has brought that concept to life for me. She is an amazing woman.

What is your interest/connection with this passage?

in Christ

Dinah

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barbara page

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:12 pm

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:33 pm
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Name of your church: First Evangelical Free Church of McKeesport

Thank you for your upbeat and positive response to my commentary.

I believe that the mother of the king wrote proverbs 31. So many think that Proverbs 31 begins at v. 10. I am looking to the internal evidence beginning in v. 1, that states that the words are from the mother of the king. She spoke/communicated these words directly to her son, the king. In some fashion then, her words are the words that are recorded, not the king's! I am speculating here but the one recording these words probably was not the king or his mother but a professional/court scribe.

There is nothing about this oracle that suggests that it ends at verse 9. Verses 10 to the end are part of this oracle. The acrostic starts at verse 10, but that doesn't mean the oracle ends there.

I am not a feminist and I don't have any desire to somehow make the net bible more 'female-friendly'. I have been in a situation where I was given advice to more strongly emulate the woman who fears the Lord as described in Proverbs 31. It is turning out that the more I study Proverbs 31 and apply it to my life, the free-er I get. It has been liberating (in a following-God-more-closely-way). Instead of feeling the weight of expectation from others, I now see how much 'fun' it is to really emulate this woman!

And the weight of expectation of others, as they think Proverbs 31 should be interpreted,
usually has the flavor of the wife making her husband and family life the the highest priority.

Thank you and I look forward to your response

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Antipater

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:49 am

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What leads you to believe that "Lemuel" is another name for "Solomon"? Perhaps you could point us to the commentaries which suggest as much...

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RTCrudgi

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:03 am

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barbara page wrote:

I believe that the mother of the king wrote proverbs 31.

barbara page wrote:

I am speculating here but the one recording these words probably was not the king or his mother but a professional/court scribe.

First I would disagree with your conclusion that the mother wrote this. This is clearly attributed to King Lemuel. It is something which he was taught by his mother but the recording of it is clearly associated to the king. These "sayings" (NIV) or "words" (NET & KJV) are things which this person/king wanted recorded IMO. I reach this conclusion from the text. A scribe or court recorder may have written this but it was done because of the King's direction.
IMHO the first nine verses of this proverb is the direction given by a mother to her son. Again. I reach this conclusion from the text. I must also point out that many verses in Proverbs point to the teachings of both mother and father in concert (i.e. Pro. 1:8, Pro. 6:20, Pro. 23:22, & Pro. 30:11) as do the Scriptures in the whole (see Deu. 21:18, Deu. 27:16, & Eph. 6:1). I think one should read the NET notes for the acrostic poem beginning at verse 10 in part they say,

Quote:

In general, it appears that the “woman” of Proverbs 31 is a symbol of all that wisdom represents. The poem, then, plays an important part in the personification of wisdom so common in the ancient Near East. But rather than deify Wisdom as the other ANE cultures did, Proverbs simply describes wisdom as a woman. Several features will stand out in the study of this passage. First, it is an alphabetic arrangement of the virtues of wisdom (an acrostic poem). Such an acrostic was a way of organizing the thoughts and making them more memorable (M. H. Lichtenstein, “Chiasm and Symmetry in Proverbs 31,” CBQ 44 [1982]: 202-11). Second, the passage is similar to hymns, but this one extols wisdom. A comparison with Psalm 111 will illustrate the similarities. Third, the passage has similarities with heroic literature. The vocabulary and the expressions often sound more like an ode to a champion than to a domestic scene. Putting these features together, one would conclude that Proverbs 31:10-31 is a hymn to Lady Wisdom, written in the heroic mode. Using this arrangement allows the sage to make all the lessons of wisdom in the book concrete and practical, it provides a polemic against the culture that saw women as merely decorative, and it depicts the greater heroism as moral and domestic rather than only exploits on the battlefield. The poem certainly presents a pattern for women to follow. But it also presents a pattern for men to follow as well, for this is the message of the book of Proverbs in summary. (NET Bible Note 23 of Proverbs 31)

There is some speculation that King Lemuel is Solomon. That would mean that the words of at least the first 9 verses are from Bathsheba. However, this is speculation and not factual. Again the note on proverbs 31 in the NET are helpful,

Quote:

Nothing else is known about King Lemuel aside from this mention in the book of Proverbs. Jewish legend identifies him as Solomon, making this advice from his mother Bathsheba; but there is no evidence for that. The passage is the only direct address to a king in the book of Proverbs – something that was the norm in wisdom literature of the ancient world. NET Bible Note 1 of Proverbs 31

We must be careful not to take our speculation beyound what the text is trying to convey. Who wrote this is not necessarily the point. The virtues of following the pattern of true wisdom is the point of all the proverbs.

Blessings,
Randy

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Obadiah

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:05 am

Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:34 pm
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From the Soncino volume on Proverbs:

Quote:

As with Agur, the traditional opinion is that Lemuel is a name for Solomon, meaning 'towards (lemo) God el', one who is dedicated to Him.

I'd guess the sages had a couple of motivations for this proposal: (1) to bring the entire book of Proverbs under Solomonic authorship and (2) to avoid the possibility that a Gentile might have written portions of Scripture (since there is no Israelite king named Lemuel). There is no historical evidence that Solomon ever went by either Lemuel or Agur (the proposed etymology of the latter being quite fanciful).

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Antipater

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:15 am

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Thanks for the informative reply Obadiah!

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barbara page

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:51 pm

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:33 pm
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Name of your church: First Evangelical Free Church of McKeesport

Thank you so much everyone. This is the type of discussion I have been looking for. I am not certain I can keep all the 'threads' going since it looks we have some of the same questions. Just as a side note - I used my library card to actually borrow references that are included in the NET Bible on Proverbs 31 and so when those texts get here we all could possibly get more information.

I hope to just discuss one thing in each post or else I will get dizzy.

As for the authorship of Proverbs 31 - I also got the idea that Lemuel was another name for Solomon from some church fathers. I will try to find this information to post here so we all can see it. The internet and web makes searching for this type of thing relatively easy. But there still is so much scholarly Bible sources that have not made online yet.....perhaps I can visit my nearest seminary library.

Another reason that some assert that Lemuel is Solomon is because Solomon used the third person to describe himself and his activities in other places. He is the preacher in Ecclesiastes. He is the beloved in Song of Solomon. This thought is not original to me, I know I read it somewhere.

The gospel of John is long way from Proverbs 31. But here again, John talks about himself in the third person.

I need to stop so that we might be able keep on topic...but I dearly love rabbit trails.

barbara page

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dcljoy

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:48 pm

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Quote:

but I dearly love rabbit trails.

me too .... because in the 'rabbit trails' we usually start to come to grips with what it all means in our daily living .... and as much as I love to study, unless it translates into a difference in our daily living, and our growing conformity to the image of Christ it is all "vanity" - as another book attributed to Solomon keeps saying.

perhaps we could start another thread where we explore the practical applications (if any) and how they apply.

joy

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barbara page

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:48 pm

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:33 pm
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Name of your church: First Evangelical Free Church of McKeesport

I've made some progress in my own continuing study of Proverbs 31. I got my hands on the Claudia V. Camp book mentioned in the NET notes on this section. Her thesis (and this really was her thesis!) is that the whole book of proverbs is about anthropomorphic/femininity of Wisdom, i.e., taking an attribute, giving it gender, actions and personality! Lady Wisdom as she is known. She doesn't really analyze Proverbs separately from the rest of the book. I believe Camp forces the whole 'Lady Wisdom' onto Chapter 31 to fit her whole outline and thesis of Proverbs. So...

Camp does not say that the Proverbs 31 woman is fictional or not - she only knows that somehow this gal IS wisdom. Here is my question: If Camp is right, and it is lady Wisdom described in vv 10-end how is it that shopping for wool and flax is wise? What is so wise about planting grapes, buying food from far away places, spinning and weaving, wearing the color purple...and so on.

Even the notes on this section very strongly suggest that the woman did not exist. "In general, it appears that the 'woman' of Proverbs 31 is a symbol of all that wisdom represents." this is footnote 23 at the beginning of verse 10.

barbara page

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Antipater

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:21 pm

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Wisdom is doing what blesses others (and blesses God), being faithful to the covenant and thereby enjoying all the benefits of blessing under the covenant. Wisdom is more than we traditionally think it in our modern context. It was crafstmanship, knowledge of the world, creation and its ways, covenant-faithfulness, etc. That's how I would answer what you are asking. Is that helpful?

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gilgal

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:36 pm

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:29 pm
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Antipater wrote:

What leads you to believe that "Lemuel" is another name for "Solomon"? Perhaps you could point us to the commentaries which suggest as much...

Quote:

Lemuel = "for God"

1) the name of an unknown king to whom his mother addressed the prudential maxims contained in some of the Proverbs

a) might be same as king Solomon

From:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 3927&t=KJV

The last 22 verses of this chapter are alphabetic in nature. It was their form of poetry where each verse begins with a consecutive lettered word ( Aleph to Tav ). It must have some significance like Lamentations where in that case (Lamentations 2, 3 and 4) the 16th and 17th letters Ayin and Peh are switched. As for chapter 5 there is no pattern at all just as Judah went into captivity.

Perhaps the alphabetic pattern/poetry shows perfection of literature.

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Antipater

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:32 pm

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The arrangement according to the letters of an alphabet is not particularly "poetic" though it can be used in a poetic organization. There are other things which constitute Hebrew poetics. As to the "Lemuel/Solomon" suggestion...thanks for pointing that out, but it still does nothing more than state it as possible without any supporting evidence. Gesenius did not suggest this. Not sure where the entry comes from in the upper portion of the BLB "Lexicon". Certainly the alphabetic structure may speak to the idea of fullness or completeness of a matter.

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gilgal

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:45 pm

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Antipater wrote:

There are other things which constitute Hebrew poetics

Can you expand more on this? You can pm me if necessary thanks!

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Antipater

Post subject: Re: Proverbs 31

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:52 pm

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Most often Hebrew poetry is identified by some form of parallelism of structure whether this is accomplished in a contrastive or comparative, or advancing the thought, manner (I'm simply trying to simplify the language of this). There are, of course, other things that are secondary, but this is primary to classical Hebrew poetry. Some of the secondary features may include such things for one reason or another such as the alphabetic touches, or assonance, or even (very rarely) rhymed words or onomatopoeia. The primary characteristic and what actually makes it poetry in Hebrew though is the structure. In some ways we may actually also describe this as a "terseness" as opposed to the way that things tend to be written in prose. Does that help?

A fellow who I've found very helpful in discussions about Hebrew poetics is an acquaintance of mine, John Hobbins (who holds a Ph.D. and pastors) who blogs about this and has a tremendous amount of detailed work on the topic HERE. He has quite a few links specifically for Hebrew poetics in the sidebar on the left if you scroll down.

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