The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

Paul describes a situation where people are at a gathering where each that participates do so in order, with the inclusion of all different types of ministry.
That much is clear.
The chronology and the availability of NT scripture is not.
In fact, it would be a long time before the gospel would be disseminated to each major church, his own collection of letters would not be copied and collected for years.
So, what does that leave you with?

For those that are aware of biblical precedent, the entire NT is based on the OT with plenty of references to many topics not limited to just the messiah.
If you take this into account, you would see that the people mentioned by Paul are also doing the same thing, all based on the same OT.

That is a bit simplistic. The new churches were built around the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is clear from Acts and the earliest epistles that the "Christ" event was at the heart of apostolic preaching.

The gospel - which is contained in the Gospels - is also contained in the epistles - so the date of the completed gospels is beside the point. We also need to recognize that the materiel in the gospels did not appear when these books were written by their respective authors, but rather the writers were presenting the story which they knew so well in an orderly manner - and in some cases adding their own memories.

The OT is inspired Scripture, but after the coming of the prophesied Messiah, it must now be read through the prism of Jesus Christ and His ministry. The church soon had the writing of the Apostles and their company to help them in their walk. The dates of each NT book is not written in stone, but I believe that the Gospels were all written before 70AD and that portions of the synoptics were written down by 40AD.

John

John

I think you may have hit the submit button twice..I deleted the second copy. Mike

_________________
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn

Paul got his doctrine from being a Jew, a son of a Pharisee, first and fore most. On the road to Damascus Paul received a revelation of the Lord Jesus and forthcoming conversion was led by the spirit to bring the gospel message to the Gentile world. I believe you can clearly see the distinction in the Jerusalem Council’s decision that Paul’s gospel was in accord with that of the pillars of faith in Peter James and John’s gospel in Jerusalem and that his mission was outward to the gentile world including the Jews of the Diaspora who had not returned to the holy land. Pauline theology as is often called derives from being led by the Holy Spirit. Paul in going out to the gentiles perhaps went to the synagogues first to reach his lost brothers of the law and bringing to them the realization of the Messiahs entrance and deliverance upon humanity and the fulfillment of the law and that the law was imported on all mankind without excuse as Romans clearly teaches. .Paul’s doctrine as 1 Corinthians teaches is preach the risen Lord preaching Christ crucified for atonement of sin and new rebirth as the CORE belief. Other doctrinal issues were worked out after the 1st AD, since a form of Gnosticism came on the scene in the early church and the church had to combat these heresies, hence the ecumenical councils that shaped the face of Christianity forever.

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Also keep in mind Paul studied with the leaders of the Jerusalem church, many of whom were directly taught by Jesus. Just because the Gospels we have today were written later doesn't mean the first Christians didn't have Jesus' teachings.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

Paul no doubt is an educated Pharisee studying under the discipleship of Gamaliel and it reasons that all in the temple of Jerusalem were highly educated men, perhaps even influenced by Hellenistic culture. In retrospect with Jesus calling of the 12 they were what could be considered tradesman working a hard life for an honest living only by virtue of being a Jew and therefore required to follow Jewish customs, one being reading of the torah. Now that I have reflected on Paul’s doctrine; it makes him a perfect candidate to go out to the gentile world. God is truly amazing in his choice of people to serve the kingdom

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

PBob, Paul explicitly states that his gospel did not result from consultations with the other church leaders but came directly from a revelation from Jesus Christ:


His purpose for going to Jerusalem was not to obtain instructions from the apostles there, but only to make their acquaintance. The reason Paul is an apostle is because of the direct revelation he received from Christ.

Regards.

_________________
All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

JimD

You are correct about the origins of Paul's doctrine, but that does not mean that he did not litsen to the apostles' recounting of the Life of Christ. The two ideas are complimentary rather then contradictory.

John

_________________
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn

Jim, that's what I get for not double checking. He was in Syria and Cilicia for 14 years. What he did all those years, we do not know, but tradition holds that the Apostle John lived in Asia Minor, perhaps Ephesus, at around the same time. I did not mean Paul received the Gospel from others, as you pointed out. But Paul taught a whole lot more than the Gospel. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that Paul may have been taught some doctrine from other early church leaders.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

You guys missed the point, an adequate knowledge of the OT will show you the many ways that the gentile church's inner workings are all described to include the gifts.
This is where you have to toss out the commentaries and the graduate level systemologies that are not based on anything in the real world conditions that we lay members live under.
You don't even bother to look at the situation described in scripture.
What good are the professional ranks if they can't see the situation for what it is?

Why should we discard those books which help us to understand the Bible. Would not the destruction of those books increase our ignorance?

You ought to read some of those books which you defame. Many of these writings are quite uplifting and profitable for believers.

The OT is very important, but the Gospel is most clear in the NT. God's full revelation is completed for our time - until he returns,

John

_________________
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn

Since I never really responded to your original post, but only corrected PBob on a statement he made, and since I am a tax accountant working late on a Saturday night, your comment above cannot possibly be directed at me. So I will respond in defense of my cyberfriends with and without theological degrees who have replied to your initial post.

I suspect the reason you have not received responses on target with your question is that you don't communicate very clearly.



Well, it may be clear to you, but Paul wrote lots of things. Would you have your readers look up and guess what you are referring to? I could suppose that you are referring to I Corinthians 14, but would you have us guess? Why can't you be more precise in your question? (BTW, "each" is singular and should be used with "does" a singular form of the verb "do". "Each who" would also be preferable to "each that.")

Secondly, are you asking a question or making a statement? It is not exactly clear, is it?



What does this have to do with the title of this thread, which I assume is the title you gave it? Not exactly clear, is it?



Most people would think that the statement, "the entire NT is based on the OT with plenty of references to many topics not limited to just the messiah" is either true or it is not true. Apparently, based upon what you have written, you believe that is true only "for those that are aware of biblical precedent." I suspect you don't really believe that, but that is what you have written, isn't it? So what you have written is not exactly very clear.


This is a perfect example of a run-on sentence. Another example of poor communication.

So get off you high horse. If you want to ask a question, ask a question. If you want to make a statement of something you think and open a conversation with others to see if they agree, then make the statement and ask for comments. But don't disparage people because they didn't hit the obscure target you held out there. Being a "lay person" living in the real world does not give you that right. Because you're not the only one who lives there.

Regards.

_________________
All Scripture quotations are New American Standard Bible, unless otherwise indicated.

Why the lambasting? People are genuinely trying to articulate an answer to Paul’s doctrine.
All of the responses are reasonable and within the scope of internal attestation of scripture and what is external is of sound and historical significance to be included in the discussion for example a 3rd letter to Corinth that is mentioned (can not remember where in 1 or 2 Corinthians just waking up to a cup of Joe) but point being enough descriptions to at least paint a picture of the apostle Paul and his doctrine. Is there anything specific you are questioning or what to bring out for discussion? Paul is spirit led is it he not? Paul is a son of a Pharisee is he not? And he met the risen Lord on the road to Damascus, yes?
Is Paul a fore runner of the first Messianic Christian a defendable yes?
Paul’s doctrine as it should be today for Christians, is, preaching Christ crucified. We stand or fall on this one doctrine do we not? Please let us know if there is something more you wish to expound upon

Peace & Grace

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

The title is nothing but an introduction, its just a way examining a given situation in the NT.
So, if you take into account the fact that there is no NT at the time this letter is written, you are left with the need to explain in real time what is happening.

You have to admit that there are times when commentary comes short.
This particular episode is one where function is the issue.
If these people only had the OT as the basis for doctrine, interpretation and even prophecy, the situation itself challenges what is believed by most believers today.
So, the challenge is to see this otherwise well-known situation in another light.
Lets be honest about commentary, its not scripture, it may have some rudimentary importance. it might help to organize things, but like we see in Job, merely stating what is currently known about God comes short in the real world.
Above all, lets make sure that we don't engage in sectarian battles over interpretation.

If we take for assurance that all that was available to Paul or any other Jew or proselyte, was Torah, then we can assume that some obeyed the letter of the law that they may be to the Lord a sweet aroma a pure sacrifice or spotless lamb not by the works of the law but what was written on their hearts. It makes sense that some of the Jews lived their life from an inward perception of the torah and others did not as obvious as it is clearly seen with the religious pious condoning Jesus’ activities for example healing on the Sabbath.
But again it is probable that some form of oral tradition or perhaps written texts conceived out of the OT came into existence as Christianity began taking root and an Christological doctrine was necessary to distance itself from other cults.
Paul’s doctrine is clear as a bell, preaching Christ crucified for humanities sins
as he was led by the spirit to understanding

_________________
Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.