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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Jesus said that the malefactor on the cross next to Him would be in Paradise with Him 'To Day', the day of His crucifixion. But Jesus was crucified and buried Friday, dead Saturday and did rise again Sunday, two days later. How could the malefactor be with Jesus in Paradise, 'To Day', the day that Jesus was slain on the cross, if Jesus remained dead until the following Sunday? How could this happen?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:01 pm 
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Jesus's soul and human spirit went to paradise along with the thief's. However Jesus's body remained in the grave 2 more days until the his body was resurrected in glorified form joined with his soul and spirit. There's a great article on bible.org that explains it in more detail (see section "2. The soul and spirit of Christ"):

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=641

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:13 pm 
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He was either dead or he was not. If he went to Paradise that Friday then he was not dead, he was alive in Paradise with the Father. But He did not go to the Father until after he had been seen by many on earth. "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them and after they knew that he was risen, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark 16:19. Explain that.

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Spiritual hypothesis linked http://bhojc.org with my doctrinal statement upper right.
All Scripture is from The Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
It is important that KJV be your source document.

Jesus loves you! Listen to him.
I know nothing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Amen & Aman


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:20 pm 
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Oops, I mis-quoted that passage. "So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark 16:19. Sorry.

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Spiritual hypothesis linked http://bhojc.org with my doctrinal statement upper right.
All Scripture is from The Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
It is important that KJV be your source document.

Jesus loves you! Listen to him.
I know nothing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Amen & Aman


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:46 pm 
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"Paradise" is not heaven. In Jewish theology it was the place often called "Abraham's bosom" where the righteous went after death to await the resurrection. There are various beliefs about what Jesus did there, but many believe He led those dwelling there somewhere else.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:56 pm 
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There's two kinds of deaths we're dealing with: Physical and Spiritual death. Jesus experienced spiritual death ("Why has thou forsaken me?") which was completed at the cross ("it is finished") and Jesus was back into union with the Father ("Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit"). Afterwards he physically died ("after this, he gave up the ghost") but spiritually he was immediately in paradise ("Abraham's Bosom", See Luke 16).

As recap, Jesus was spiritually alive in paradise but physically dead up to this point. He was both physically and spiritually alive when he was resurrected with a glorified body.

"sitting at the right hand of God" indicates that he was in heaven where God exalted him to equal honor with himself and recognized him as possessing equal dignity and authority.

Hopefully someone who can provide more details as to the whole heaven/paradise and hell/hades comparisons.

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My Pastor's testimony "Street Kid to Preacher" - http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 1A10FF286C


Last edited by derek c on Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:00 pm 
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psychobobicus, so you are saying that Jesus was not dead three day, but that he was alive in Abraham's bosom. Is this what you are saying?

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Spiritual hypothesis linked http://bhojc.org with my doctrinal statement upper right.
All Scripture is from The Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
It is important that KJV be your source document.

Jesus loves you! Listen to him.
I know nothing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Amen & Aman


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:08 pm 
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red, what is your idea of "dead"? Perhaps that would help the discussion.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:11 pm 
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derek c, if his spirit was alive then he was not dead! Jesus became a man all the way, so when his body died so did his spirit, plain and simple. If this was not the case then he was not truly a man. If he was not dead body and spirit, he was not dead, just acting dead. How can someone be dead if they are alive?

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Spiritual hypothesis linked http://bhojc.org with my doctrinal statement upper right.
All Scripture is from The Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
It is important that KJV be your source document.

Jesus loves you! Listen to him.
I know nothing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Amen & Aman


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:15 pm 
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psychobobicus, my idea of dead is dead, body, mind and spirit, along with any other facet of life which may apply. DEAD!

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Spiritual hypothesis linked http://bhojc.org with my doctrinal statement upper right.
All Scripture is from The Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
It is important that KJV be your source document.

Jesus loves you! Listen to him.
I know nothing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Amen & Aman


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:46 pm 
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It is a logical fallacy to define a term using the term itself. IOW, you can't define dead as being dead. That doesn't help.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:04 pm 
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reddneo:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God or do you believe that Jesus Christ is a created being?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:53 pm 
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psychobobicus,

dead - no longer living. having died.

Obadiah,

I believe that Jesus Christ is God.

btw, I use the King James Version of the Bible, exclusively.

_________________
Spiritual hypothesis linked http://bhojc.org with my doctrinal statement upper right.
All Scripture is from The Authorized King James Version of the Bible.
It is important that KJV be your source document.

Jesus loves you! Listen to him.
I know nothing, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Amen & Aman


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Again, it doesn't help to define a word using the word itself.
For example, when a human dies, I believe their body ceases to function and it begins to physically decay, while their soul/spirit leaves the physical body and goes before God to be judged. So I would not say that any human's soul/spirit "dies" in the way the physical one does.

So, what is your definition of "dead"?

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Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
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Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:05 pm 
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reddneo:

Thanks for answering my question.

Could you perhaps explain, then, your understanding of Christ's humanity and divinity? When you propose -- at least this is how I'm reading you -- that Christ was unconscious during the interim between His death and resurrection, how does that work with His divinity?

As for your original question, it's entirely possible to punctuate differently, so that "today" modifies "I say to you" rather than "you will be" -- although you'd have to depart from KJV to accept that.


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