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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:51 am 
I think that faith cannot come only from logic, because to have faith in God means to trust and love God.
I think however that materialism and atheism are incompatible with the scientific view of the universe.

Science has in fact proved that all chemical, biological and cerebral processes consist only in some successions of elementary physical processes, determined in their turn only by the laws of quantum mechanics. Such a view of biological processes does not allow to account for the existence of consciousness, which existence implies then the presence in man of an unphysical element.
Such element, being unphysical, can be identified as the soul.

My name is Marco Biagini and I am a Ph. D. in Solid State Physics;
I would like to invite you in the site:

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where I analyse in detail the incongruencies of the materialistic conception of the mind, on the basis of our present scientific knowledges about brain and matter.
In the first article entitled “Mind and brain” you can find a general discussion of the mind and brain problem from a scientific point of view.
In the second article entitled “Scientific contraddictions in materialism”
you can find an explanation of the fundamental inconsistencies of the typical arguments used by materialists, such as the concept of emergent, macroscopic or holist property, complexity, information, etc.
Basically, science has proved that the so-called emergent properties are nothing but arbitrary classifications of some successions of elementary physical processes; in other words, they are only abstract concepts used to describe in an approximated way the real processes.
Since consciousness is a preliminary necessary condition for the existence of any concepts or classifications, the materialist attempts to explain consciousness as an emergent property
are absolutely inconsistent from a logical point of view.
No entities which existence presupposes the existence of consciousness can be considered as the cause of the existence of consciousness.

The problem of the existence of the soul is strictly connected to the one of God's existence, as I explain in the section called “FAQ: answers to visitors' questions”, where you can find the answer to many other typical questions, such as "Are there any scientifically proved miracles?", "Does the existence of the universe imply the existence of God?", "Can science explain God?", "Can science establish which is the true religion?", "Can science explain consciousness in the future?", and many others.

An independent argument to prove directly the existence of God is the following.
Science has proved that the state of the universe is determined by some specific mathematical equations, the laws of physics; the universe cannot exist independently from such equations, which determine the events and the properties of such events (including the probability for the event to occur, according to the predictions of quantum mechanics). However we know that a mathematical equation cannot exist by itself, but it exists only as a thought in a conscious and intelligent mind. In fact, a mathematical equation is only an abstract concept, which existence presupposes the existence of a person conceiving such a concept. Therefore, the existence of this mathematically structured universe does imply the existence of a personal God; this universe cannot exist by itself, but it can exist only if there is a conscious and inteligent God conceiving it according to some specific mathematical equations .
Someone claims that the present laws of physics cannot be considered exact because we do not have a unique theory unifying general relativity with electroweak and strong interactions. First of all, it must be stressed that it is not necessary at all that such theory must exist; God could have conceived the universe both according to a unified theory and according to some disjoined theories. Anyway, a well-known property of mathematical equations is the possibility to find approximate equations able to reproduce with great accuracy the results of the exact equation in a given range of values. This is the reason why classical mechanics (which represents the approximation) can replace quantum mechanics (which represents the exact theory) in the study of many macroscopic processes. So, independently from the fact that we choose to consider the present laws of physics as exact or approximate, the systematic accuracy of their predictions proves that the state of the universe is determined by specific mathematical equations. In fact, if natural processes were not determined by any mathematical equations, there would be no reason to expect to be able to predict the natural processes (neither a limited number of them), through some mathematical equations.

Someone objects that the mathematical equations are not the principles ruling the universe, but they are only a representation imagined by man. Someone else claims that math is only the language used to describe the universe. This objections however do not stand since the laws of physics are intrinsecally abstract mathematical concepts, and when we ask them to describe which "natural principles" should really rule the universe and be represented by the equations of physics (for example the Schroedinger or the Dirac equations), they remain speachless. Their incapacity to describe concretely the laws of physics is a direct consequence of the intrinsic abstract and conceptual nature of the laws of physics. Actually, they use the term "natural principles" (or equivalent expressions) but these are vague and completely indefinite concepts: they are not true concepts, but only empty rethoric figures, without any real meaning. Besides, the objective result is that natural phenomena occur according to some specific mathematical equations; this result can be explained without any need to introduce vague and obscure concepts of "natural principles". The most simple and direct explanation is that nature is ruled by some specific mathematical equations. The "natural principles" are then a concept as empty and meaningless as superfluous.


Someone claims that the equations of physics are not the cause of the natural processes, but they are only the result of our analysis of experimental data; in other words, they are only the way we have ordered and summarized, in a mathematical language, the observed processes.
In this case, however, every new experimental data would require a new analysis and a revision of our equations. Such objection is then clearly denied by the predictive capability of the equations of physics.
In a non-mahematically structured universe we should have the following situation:
through the analysis of experimental data we could find a mathematical function or equation to represent such data. However, every new experiment would give us some new data which do not fit our equations, so that we should revise our equations. There is no reason to expect that a new experiment should give data compatible with our equations; in fact,in principle, the possible outcome for our data are infinite numerical values, so the probability to find the predicted values is zero (the probability is calculated as the quotient of the favorable outcomes and the possible outcomes, and since the possible outcomes are infinite, this quotient is zero). We have found however the opposite situation, i.e. the sistematic confirmation of the predictions of the equations of physics.
Consider that the equations of quantum mechanics have been discovered last century, through the analysis of some simple atoms; these equations have then correctly predicted the behavior of billions of other molecules and systems, and no revisions of the equations have been necessary.
Since last century, we have been observing a systematic confirmation of the laws of physics, in our numberless studies on newer and newer systems and materials.
It then correct to say that the probabilty that the universe is not intrinsecally ruled through mathematical equations is zero.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:10 am 
I am looking for a 'BASIC ' ministry tool outline of tying science and the bible together. For exampel the 6 days of creation .[ The 7 day he rested ] . The flood in Noas day.Evidevce of the EXODUS,the plegs ect, Sodom and Gomoras destruction. petrified wood.The drastic life span decline after the flood. Ect; Ect
I would like also to add ; How a evolution'st would answer=catagory
such as 1] Why do weeds grow only where man has desturbe the soil ?
2] How did all the varietys of seeds that develop into plants; vegtables and trees & fruit trees evolve. [hehe]
3] IS oxygen tangible ; is gravity tangible
4] Why dos'nt our so called ancestors =monkys' & a Apes eat meat.
5] Can science prove that any of the 66 books of the bible are frogulent beyond a reasonable dought. [haha]

There are so many questions that i believe = "THEY" have no logical tangible explanation for.
Ill take any SIMPLE= BASIC,= FUN AND HUMERUS ,material that i could make a presitation out of.Ill take the serious suff also ,but it has to be simpified.
stacy64@email.com thank you.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:04 pm 
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Weeds do not only grow where man has disturbed the soil. Where did you get that idea?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:37 pm 
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My question is..."Does 'scientific proof' actually prove God's existence?" Doesn't it seem funny that we wish to prove the one who IS as if He hasn't already revealed HImself to us definitively? And at what point exactly is scientific proof not based off of a myriad of different acts of 'faith' in whatever it is that science is purporting to 'know'.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Antipater wrote:
And at what point exactly is scientific proof not based off of a myriad of different acts of 'faith' in whatever it is that science is purporting to 'know'.


At the point when a theory is backed up by data which appears to be consistent with the theory. So it hardly has anything to do with "faith" like the existence of pink unicorns and such. How is it you think dentist, doctors, and so forth get to treat their patients? Surely, it's not on the mere "act of faith" but on solutions that have worked, or could work to solve the "issue." In the event treatments, hypothesis, or what-have-you do not work they (scientists, doctors, etc.) keep working on it.

Having faith that one can do something and back it up, or trying to establish possibility by gathered facts is one thing. Having faith and assuming things one cannot back up is completely different.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Ronin,
Apparently you see a contradiction between faith and work of the sciences? How do doctors, dentists, scientists carry on their work accept that by faith in what has been passed down to them or what they believe to be the case they act, surmise, critique, etc.
rOnIn WaRriOr wrote:
At the point when a theory is backed up by data which appears to be consistent with the theory.
The emphasis should be on "appears" which is a matter of interpretation, which is a matter of belief. While the evidence may be certain, our understanding of it isn't ever. That is the very essence of scientific inquiry that nothing is ultimately provable, but merely the presuppositions one holds (the faith if you will) given the evidence suggests that this is the most plausible explanation (at least until something better is developed). The only difference that I see is not between faith and facts but between faith and faith. The facts remain the same, though the faith of the interpreter differs.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Antipater wrote:
Ronin,

Apparently you see a contradiction between faith and work of the sciences?


Not at all but there is a difference between the two.

Quote:
How do doctors, dentists, scientists carry on their work accept that by faith in what has been passed down to them or what they believe to be the case they act, surmise, critique, etc.


Since the work has been documented and shown to work it hardly has anything to do with accepting it on faith. What do you think they do as they get their education? Accept things on faith, or apply what they have learned to see if it works?

Quote:
The emphasis should be on "appears" which is a matter of interpretation, which is a matter of belief.


And guess what? The belief is tested to see if the interpretation is valid or invalid. If the disease is cured would it not be logical to conclude that it is no longer the mere appearance but more likely that it worked? You do not see rational people refusing medical help for their children and opting to have faith their children will be magically healed. I see and hear of people from my church taking their kids to the doctor and not taking them to the altar to be healed by faith. Why is that?

cont.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:03 pm 
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While the evidence may be certain, our understanding of it isn't ever. That is the very essence of scientific inquiry that nothing is ultimately provable, but merely the presuppositions one holds (the faith if you will) given the evidence suggests that this is the most plausible explanation (at least until something better is developed).


Well, that conclusion certainly gives us reasons to keep looking into it. Does it not? Anyways, the sciences of cosmology, biology, etc. do indeed change if there is a better model. This would invalidate our previous presuppositions and allow a better accurate picture. Indeed, but if you think that the acceptance of the older model is based on untested assertions you would be incorrect.

Quote:
The only difference that I see is not between faith and facts but between faith and faith. The facts remain the same, though the faith of the interpreter differs.


What I have concluded is that we would have no facts to apply to any model if one wants to solely delve in faith.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:07 pm 
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I am not here speaking of ignorant faith, but of faith nevertheless. All of the sciences operate on the basis of faith. Faith that hypotheses are correct, that truth is knowable, that tests may reveal what actually is, that other scientist have faithfully handed down what is true, etc. There is NO body of knowledge that fails to operate by faith. You seem to treat science as if it only deals with 'facts' and what is 'true', but there is a reason that doctors are said to "practice" medicine. All science is a practice, a trusting and seeking and supposing, based off the information utilized by them to ascertain what they believe is the most likely explanation. This is an act of faith. I have never stated that we only deal in 'faith'...as if anything that is taken in faith is not (at least to the one believing it) based upon fact. No one believes anything except that they have some form of convincing evidence (even if it is only convincing to themselves).

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:31 pm 
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"4] Why dos'nt our so called ancestors =monkys' & a Apes eat meat."

Stacy, were did you pick this up? Our closest DNA animal kingdom cousins, CHIMPS (Lancelot Link)
are OMNIVOROUS . :-0

They also kill their own and eat meat from many sources. The little Bas***** are vicious when riled. They can toss a man thrice their weight around like a doll.
S

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:57 pm 
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OK...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:02 pm 
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You don't believe me? Just one RECENT episode:

A 14 year old pet chimp named Travis attacked his owner's friend, who lost her hands, eyes, nose and part of her upper jaw/sinus area from the attack.[3] [4] There are four documented cases of chimpanzees snatching and eating human babies. [5] WIKI

S

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:46 pm 
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stacy sanchez wrote:
I am looking for a 'BASIC ' ministry tool outline of tying science and the bible together. For exampel the 6 days of creation .[ The 7 day he rested ] . The flood in Noas day.Evidevce of the EXODUS,the plegs ect, Sodom and Gomoras destruction. petrified wood.The drastic life span decline after the flood. Ect; Ect
I would like also to add ; How a evolution'st would answer=catagory
such as 1] Why do weeds grow only where man has desturbe the soil ?
2] How did all the varietys of seeds that develop into plants; vegtables and trees & fruit trees evolve. [hehe]
3] IS oxygen tangible ; is gravity tangible
4] Why dos'nt our so called ancestors =monkys' & a Apes eat meat.
5] Can science prove that any of the 66 books of the bible are frogulent beyond a reasonable dought. [haha]

There are so many questions that i believe = "THEY" have no logical tangible explanation for.
Ill take any SIMPLE= BASIC,= FUN AND HUMERUS ,material that i could make a presitation out of.Ill take the serious suff also ,but it has to be simpified.
stacy64@email.com thank you.


I would like to encourage you to be very careful with this type of activity. You risk doing more damage to the kingdom of God than good for the kingdom of God.
I am not proposing all these answers as true, but here are some of the answers you might get:
1) Weeds do grow where people have not disturbed the soil. A short walk along the creek behind my house provides proof.
2) The second question doesn't make sense -- did you mean: how did all the varieties of plants develop? People will begin to talk about the development of different flu strains, for example, that show changes occur in nature even today in observable ways.
3) Oxygen tangible? yes, you can put it in a steel bottle. You can feel it when it sprays out under pressure. Gravity, I would not say the term tangible is less descriptive of it. But what does any answer given prove? Nothing.
4) Some monkeys eat meat. Evolutionists may tell you that it was adding meat to the diet that prompted the expansion of brain size and help make the change to human.
5) The different branches of the church differ among themselves on whether 66 is the right number of books. One ancient church (the Church of the East) excludes 5 books of the 27-book New Testament. Another (the ancient Ethiopian Church) has 81 books.

If this is not done carefully, you can introduce a set of views to young people who later find out some of the views are either not true or are debatable. And then the faith of those young people becomes weaker rather than stronger.

Take a look at the things taught by Jesus in the New Testament. He did not focus on correcting the different views of the day, except where those views were important to the gospel. Paul's writings were the same way.

Trying to take on evolutionists head-to-head without proper training can be very damaging, ultimately, to the people you are trying to help.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:55 pm 
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Serendipity wrote:
You don't believe me? Just one RECENT episode:

A 14 year old pet chimp named Travis attacked his owner's friend, who lost her hands, eyes, nose and part of her upper jaw/sinus area from the attack.[3] [4] There are four documented cases of chimpanzees snatching and eating human babies. [5] WIKI

S


S,

The "OK" had to do with Anti's response where science is attributed with "faith." Not the blind one but the other kind... :dontknow:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Ronin,
A two letter reply, without reference, after my reply, can be misunderstood...
I suggest at least a sentence or two to prevent confusion... ;-)

STILL, I'd trust my black dog to guard and nurse--if needed--any infant or child in my house as much as any human.... She would die before letting any child come to harm. A regular LASSIE. I would never trust a chimp or a social worker....
S

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