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i always wondered why no-one discusses this as I have pondered this since my schoolboy biology classes.

The ancient view of reproduction followed the picture of seed sown in the ground. So a man sowed his seed in a woman and the offspring grew from that seed. It also gave us the picture of barrenness. If a woman was barren then the seed did not grow in her. But hopefully the woman was fertile 'ground', but did not contribute in other ways to the offspring.

So with the virgin birth, Mary did not grow the seed of Joseph, but was given a seed by the Holy Spirit.

We now understand that a person is the product of both male and female gametes, which both contribute equal amounts of DNA.

How does this understanding affect people's understanding of the virgin birth, the incarnation of The Word, and Jesus' human and divine natures?

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

Hi brother JohnChaplin,
Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit" is a theological and not a biological statement. Mary conceived Jesus without sexual intercourse with a man and was generated by God without human male involvement goes beyond what historical or scientific.

He was conceived through Annunciation when an angel announced to Joseph in a dream saying, thou son of David, fear not
not to take unto thee, Mary the wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost the miracle-working power, of the Most High shall overshadow thee, to accomplish this purpose, the more firmly established in the opinion advanced on Matthew 1:20, that the rudiments of the human nature of Christ was a real creation in the womb of the virgin, by the energy of the Spirit of God.
The Divine nature could not be born of the virgin; the human nature was born of her. The Divine nature had no eternity) with God, John 1:2, was afterwards made flesh, (became manifest in human nature,) and dwelt among us, John 1:14.

The seed which imputed to Mary’s gamete was the Word of God, John 1:1, & Luke 8:11 and was the life or Spirit from God. This corresponded to Sarah and Abraham when she was also a barren conceived Isaac despite her ages of ninety years old and could be considered was also conceived through the power of God because Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with after the manner of woman. Genesis 18:11-12

It was also the same with us and the only difference is that the gametes that formed the zygote in our mother’s womb are biological but the spirit or life that dwelt in our flesh comes from God and it was also divine, so in the end of live on earth, then the dust shall return to earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

God bless.

All scripture are NKJV unless otherwise indicated.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

Thanks Verbatim.

So are you saying that, on a physical level, Jesus was procreated in the normal way, but on a spiritual level Jesus came from (or some more suitable verb) the Spirit of God? I am not quite sure of what you are saying here.

Or was the virgin physically a virgin, or only a virgin for the spiritual significance?

And are you also saying that our own persons are a divine nature (spark) (trapped) in an earthly flesh and which will return to God at death? That sounds rather Greek (?Platonic) and different from the traditional Christian understanding of man's nature.

_________________
John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

John,
Believed it or not that is what and how I understand the scripture so, you read it again and the bible and try to comprehend what is written.
God bless.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

You surely can't mean that?
...or that?

To return to your original questions, John, I'm no particular fan of special creation , but I think something of that kind is at work here. As to when or precisely of what, though, I'm not sure I dare speculate!
 
And as to Mary's virginity, I guess the physical significance of it at conception is as a sign that Jesus's arrival in the world was out of the ordinary. I'm not sure what the spiritual significance is, though. There doesn't seem to any coherent way of linking it to non-inheritance of a sinful nature... or would the sin that originated with Eve have been seen as descending through the male seed ever thereafter? Was that even a Hebrew idea at all?

...or that?

Brother Andy,
Sorry, for typographical error word "no" must not be there. I think, I need to replace my side mirror. Bad me

About "life" the spirit that dwelt in us, yes, its divine and sinless Psalm 16:2 O my soul, thou hast said to the Lord, thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee. John 1:4 life (spirit) is distinct from soul which was a sinner.

Jesus teaches in John 12:36 that we must believed in light (life) so that we might be son of Light. James 1:18

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

I thought the first one was was probably a typo...

The scriptures you quote, though, don't in any way show that the human spirit is divine. Ps. 16 is wholly irrelevant, as far as I can see. And if John had said, "In him was light, and that light was the life of men," that would have been a different matter — it would have been gnosticism served up on a plate! But he very decidedly doesn't say that. (In fact, I suspect he's thumbing his nose at the gnostic tendency by crafting the phrase in the way he does.) As you say later, we become sons of the light, but that's when we are born from above, when we become sharers in the Holy Spirit; we aren't born the first time that way.

Hi John.

My response here is off-topic (and you might notice that I, perhaps a tad obnoxiously, snipped the sentences in your post that are irrelevant to my question) but I am curious: Since you have studied biology I, as a biologist, wonder what you believe about the Nephilim (Genesis 6:4), who (some believe) were not humans but fallen angels of some sort. Could such a being, if they existed, have mated with human females?

Personally, I'm not at all convinced that the Nephilm were not human.

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Some say Jesus was not a pacifist...

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Matthew 26:52 (NIV)

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.
Galatians 5:14

Andy,
You twisted the content of scripture by saying if John said....John 1:4 In him was life; and the life is light of men. Whether it is gnosticism or what else you would like to imply on it the word is clear that the life is the light of man, God is light and in him there is no darkness.

One must know and understand that spirit (life) is distinct to soul, s a man being tripartite is body, soul and spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 and when the word of God came into action Hebrews 4:12 the spirit (life) shall be separated from the soul, and body; the spirit man or life shall return to God who gave it and the soul (spirit of the beast) shall descend downward to earth Ecclesiastes 3:12 & Ecclesiastes 12:7

As far as sin is concerned it is the flesh and soul who committed it and nowhere in scripture that the life of man has sinned.
so if you cannot provide any single verse that life has sin, then it is sinless and holy.

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How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

In a multi-topic post it is perfectly OK to snip out the parts you are interested in. Not obnoxious at all.

A somewhat circular explanation is that a species only mates within itself. So on a biological level the Nephilim were human. But this equates Biblical narrative with scientific observation (and this is indeed the wider issue around my OP).

This narrative is not central to my faith and I offer a speculation as to its meaning, (and I am sure that others have given it much more careful thought.) This section seems to reflect a tradition where the divine nature is is men and not women. There is a contrast that men of the Sons of God and women were the daughters of humankind. This reflects some Jewish views that women were of lower value than men. And the passage harks back to a better day when the world was populated with the might heroes of legend. In some ways this complements the Garden of Eden narrative. So this is not a science narrative but a spiritual narrative. This reveals my current thinking that science knowledge is different from spiritual knowledge.
If people do not like this approach and interpretation, or are offended by it, please ignore it. I am not wedded to it and would not be crucified for it.

_________________
John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

i have no problem with a "unique" Conception -- this is God we're talking about so hey -- am naturally sceptical of man but rarely (never?) of God <shrug>

i have heard 1 reason for this is to avoid the blood curse of Jeconiah

a long time ago a pastor speculated the following -- it made sense to me then -- ain't a bio dude as physical sciences are prefered so opine on the thought:

if Eve came from Adam then their original sex chromosome pair (i forget the terminology) were both X -- after the Fall, Adam was altered to X & Y

That would raise a new question about what was meant by Gen. 1:27, wouldn't it?

it would prolly be a great ice breaker @ parties, sure -- is 1 deemed a male/female strickly via this chromosome pair? -- what does this pair bring to the party?! -- i have no idea as natural sciences bore me to death & i'd like to live a while longer

i am curious what those w/ this proclivity for bio & such think, tho

There's more to this than a fringe interest in "boring old" biology, though. At one level, it's about whether the universe is reliably consistent or not — or rather, from a Christian point of view, whether God makes it work moment by moment in a reliable, consistent way, such that we can discover meaningful things about it.

From another point of view, it's 'only' about whether sex differentiation (which in most, if not all mammals is physically based on the expression of genes found on the X/Y chromosomes) is at root a physical thing, or if there's a spiritual side to it that is not genetically determined. Thereon hang all sorts of ethical, cultural and behavioural issues...

bluesman (are you a musician?),

Many believe that the Nefilem64 (correct spell64ing) of Genasis74 6:4 were extraterrestrials http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim . I'm convinced of this after discovering Plan-it theory of GOD=7_4 or FOD=6_4 and the mathematical model of the Planet Nestor - our 'next-door neighbors' - running on 6_4 http://exep.jpl.nasa.gov/exep_exoMtgPosters.cfm .


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