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I would like to get some feedback on this:

I have yet to take a definitive position on YE vs. OE creationism. There is something that I see in much of my reading that seems to trouble me from the YE perspective. It seems that the vast majority of YE literature seems to take the position that ANY old earth perspective has a sense of biological evolution in it.

I have yet to find one OE creationist that I respect who lends any credence to biological evolution (theistic or not). It seems that their polemic on this issue seems to label the OE perspective as either evolutionists or a slippery slope that will surely end there.

From my perpective, it seems like a huge straw man that has no validity and is inclined (purposely or not) to scare someone into the YE camp. It really seems to hinder their credibility.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are there any authors on the YE side that do not focus their argument from the point of biological evolution?

Looking forward to responses.

-Mark

I can't answer that question, but I do share your concerns about the credibility of those pushing the young earth position.

The most fascinating aspect of this to me is how they can so vigorously argue the requirement of a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 while they rarely recognize that a literal view of Genesis 2 requires an acceptance of a completely different chronology.

Someone earlier posted the writings of Augustine on this matter, and it is excellent. A search might bring that up.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

Good to hear from you Cobra. I have been missing discussions on the board, but I have been watching occasionally.

I guess the thing that bothers me is the dogmatism of the YE crowd. They seem to say that it is not a salvation issue for them, yet they have a very dogmatic stance on the plain literal translation of Gen 1 and the constant pining on evolution.

It also seems kind of interesting the way they pick and choose science to try to validate themselves, but then use that to attempt to dismiss science as it is currently understood.

As I said previously, I don't have a dog in this fight (yet). I just want to form some opinions and understand both sides in order to deal with the questions from my 5 year old when he starts school next year. There seems to be a lot of good work and scholarship on the OE side. I am hopeful that the YE side would have some good resources that are not tainted by the illegitimate inferences like evolution.

-Mark

I hope they provide you some good resources too.

Take good care of the 5-year-old. Tasks don't get much more important.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

May I incline an ear; I also have a soon to be 5 year daughter. I intend on exposing her to all the sciences including earth science if you will.
Most importantly she learns of God all that is under his creation.
I want her to get a sense of an infinite God within the realm of our abilities to understand the sciences e.g.. Astronomy, geology, archaeology, etc, It is an important step for her to have the choice to embrace them (sciences) with a perspective of a God who is responsible for all versus a doctrine of no creator God and of cosmic chance for life.
That being said she can weigh the evidences herself and decide for herself, in this case OE versus YE (I hate the word versus here it creates a battle zone) and derive at what is right for her. Personally I of course will represent the OE view.
If there are resources you are looking for, I really can't think of anything for the YE view, but this link may shed some light on the subject.
I just have a hard time believing Adam was around the same time as Tyrannosaurs Rex.
Anything after 6,000 – 10,000 works for me, it could be a hundred thousand it could hundreds of millions of years, we simply do not know with certainty, but the evidences from earth IMO point to older world than to the YE view. My opinion of Course.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

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Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Here's how I have approached the subject of origins with my children...

1. Scripture clearly teaches that "in the beginning God created"
2. Contrary to the claims of some, Scripture does not specify precisely how "God created".

There are three main theoretical models for how "God created"
1. Young Earth Creationism - and Scripture can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with Young Earth Creationsim
2. Old Earth Creationism - And Scripture can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with Old Earth Creationism
3. Theistic Evolution - And Scripture can be interpreted in a way that is consistent with Theistic Evolution

I personally believe that the Scriptural and Scientific evidence matches the Old Earth Model more closely, but we don't have enough evidence either Scripturally or Scientifically to be dogmatic about which model is 'True'.

Using any man made origins tradition as some sort of litmus for the truth of Scripture or the Gospel is Spiritually dangerous. And any time we divide over origins traditions or use origins as some sort of test for Scriptural orthodoxy then we are playing right into the hands of the Adversary.

Therefore...
- I try to expose my children to the Scriptural and Scientific evidence for Young Earth Creationism (answersingenesis.org, Morris)
- I try to expose my children to the Scriptural and Scientific evidence for Old Earth Creationsim (godandscience.org, Ross)
- I try to expose my children to the Scriptural and Scientific evidence for Evolution (talkorigins.org, Dawkins)
(... yes I know that talkorigins and Dawkins are hostile to Scripture... I deal with the Scriptural issues separately)

I have no problem at all presenting my children with the different models God might have used for his creation, and letting them make up their own minds. But again... we just don't know for sure how "God created" and we shouldn't pretend that we know something for sure that we really don't.

my .02...

In Christ

Thanks for that helpful post D!

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D Bowling,

Thanks for your post. What you have stated is what I want to do with my children and others I have influence over. I would really like to find a resource from a YE perspective that does not impune the character of OE creationists. As I have looked at the various resources availabel (AIG and others), I find a bias against science, yet they seems to try to claim science when it is able to throw water on the other side.

My main point is to whether or not there is a "doctrine" in the YE movement that casts all of OE in with the naturalists who believe wholeheartedly in biological evolution. It is like they have not even read Gielsler, Ross, or Gleason since they continue to discuss OE in the evolution mindset.

I have not taken a position on this issue personally because I have not had the time to do it, however, I see the imperativeness of it now. I do not think I will ever be dogmatic one side or the other. I want to present both sides and educate as to why I believe one way or the other. I hope my children will see it as a mystery of God that they can engage Him through.

Your post is much appreciated and any other references you have, I would ask for your recommendations.

-Mark

markepp,
try John MacArthur's website, I believe he holds to a young earth creation view

http://gty.org/index.php

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Kola,

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

YEC is primarily a theological position not a scientific position. YEC starts with the theological premise that Scripture teaches that God created everything in 7 literal days and then proceeds from there to attempt to support this theological premise using 'scientific' disciplines.

Since the primary premise of YEC is that Scripture = YEC, then YEC will naturally see any other teaching (ie OEC) as contrary to Scripture. Therefore OEC becomes to them nothing more than a compromise with evolutionists/naturalists.

This is why YEC literature consistently portrays the OEC position as either allied with or compromising with the evolutionists/naturalists.

One of the better Scriptural defenses of the YEC position I've read is...
The Battle for the Beginning by John MacArthur
CLICK HERE FOR LINK
MacArthur does portray the OEC position as an unScriptural compromise with the evolutionists/naturalists, but he does do a pretty good job of laying out the Scriptural basis for YEC.


I haven't read Gleason but I think Geisler and Ross do a great job in presenting the Scriptural basis for OEC.



Here's a short list of books that have helped shape my position on origins (I'm guessing that a number of these are already familiar to you)

Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe
CLICK HERE FOR LINK

Intelligent Design by William Dembski
CLICK HERE FOR LINK

The Design Revolution by William Dembski
CLICK HERE FOR LINK

The Creator and the Cosmos by Hugh Ross
CLICK HERE FOR LINK

A Matter of Days by Hugh Ross
CLICK HERE FOR LINK

Origins of Life by Fazale Rana and Hugh Ross
CLICK HERE FOR LINK
links shrunk by moderator slj
In Christ

Kolabok,

Thanks for the website. I printed some of his stuff off last night.

-Mark

this is an issue that divides more than it unites which is why i tend to avoid it -- there are more important questions worth investigating like "who is Jesus?" -- get that 1 wrong & it won't matter what you believe regarding how God Created...

If you would prefer Christian sources of information supporting evolution, I would suggest Ken Miller (Roman Catholic, biology textbook author) and Francis Collins (Evangelical Christian, head of the Human Genome Project).

Kudos for being willing to evaluate different opinions, all of which have their share of great Christians.

In defense of the YE believers, i have yet to see many OE creationists, speak of an Old Earth, and not of evolution being the process that brought us to where we are. It is up to you to believe that god took millions of years to create everything, but god took 6 days, actually on AnswersInGenesis.org there is a video log right now of weither or not a few of the days were millions of years or litteral days, might be interesting to you, i personally take the stance that god used 6 actual days.

Sadly, I do find that once you start getting into the OE idea, without evolution, you may start to think that perhaps god DID use evolution and can lead you to this belief, it is not meant to scare but simply lend a "what may come", and scares me and other YE creationists.

God Bless
For his glory
Jordan
Gorship

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To Live is Christ, To Die Is Gain

as interesting as these threads are always take head of what Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:20 and 21