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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:10 am 
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generally, scientific opinion changes while Biblical interpretation does not (liberal revisionists notwithstanding)

my point is Paul believed what the Bible Said & i find that instructive

now, can science reveal a deeper understanding of a particular Passage? -- yes -- but if science tells me X & the Bible Tells me Y (where X<>Y) then i'm going with Y -- others, including Christians, are free to choose X, or even Z, as long as it doesn't override core doctrine

Strider33 wrote:
It's safe to say that the HS did not tell him to take Genesis figuratively
i'm not sure what you mean here -- i see Paul taking Genesis literally

Strider33 wrote:
Does that mean God has had no further revelation to humanity concerning how creation works after that time?
who can accurately answer this? -- my hunch is God is more concerned that mankind understands WHO Created the universe, not how it was done -- so my suspicion is the answer to your Q, having zero to do with the Redemptive Plan of God, would be no (for this reason i don't get wrapped up in Creation debates) -- i would prefer to hear why old earth folks think God Wrote Ex. 20:8-11 vs. telling me the universe is 15.3B yrs (or whatever the current estimate is) -- did God Use poetic license? -- that argument would be offensive to me as it maligns God's Character

Strider33 wrote:
Does that mean that all of human curiosity, including the development of science as we know it, is nothing more that the idle curiosity of a fallen humanity?
science has delivered numerous ways to better take care of the masses so that is noble -- see your commerce comment -- but our blue state friends may see this as a negative -- some of science is akin to the Tower of Babel -- pride enters into this debate far too easily -- we're so sophisticated & modern these days, after all :roll: -- to paraphrase the cat in Jurassic Park, sometimes we race to do something because we can w/o ever asking if we should

Strider33 wrote:
Does that mean that we are not to interact in any meaningful way with the theories that scientists around us accept as truth, provisionally, supported by the available evidence?
interaction is fine but we need to protect against being "unequally yoked" -- we must be vigilant to not let science become an idol -- &, yes, it's complex & subtle, like you said


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:49 am 
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Biblical interpretation changes all the time (certainly including liberal revisionists). We do not interpret as the Church once interpreted, but have (hopefully) advanced in some ways and less-hopefully have faltered in other ways. Methods have changed, notions of understanding, meaning, textuality, word-interplay, etc. have changed over time and will certainly continue to, because we are all finite beings with limited understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:03 am 
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Why would we want to intertain the idea of an old earth, in light of being told numerous time in the OT that creation occurred in six days, unless we think we have to accept an old earth since the concept of evolution requires it in order to account for all that evolving that is supposed to have taken place so slowly?


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:49 am 
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Antipater wrote:
Biblical interpretation changes all the time
please share an example or 3 so others can grasp the scope of your stmt


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:53 am 
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Has the Church always interpreted everything the same? Have you always interpreted everything always the same? When did the Historical-Grammatical form of interpretation appear on the scene? Has it remained a stagnant pre-set form (following a pre-determined formula) or has it changed as well over time? Do we know all there is to know about Biblical interpretation? Do we all see eye-to-eye on every matter of interpretation (how, what, why, etc.) even as may hold to nearly identical theological underpinnings? Put simply: Biblical interpretation changes, because Biblical interpreters change.

I'm merely noting this, because Biblical interpreters have no room for being arrogant about their interpretation versus scientific interpretations (or any others). We can (and must) be convinced and humble at the same time. It is not a matter of fact (nor of common knowledge) that Biblical interpreters are somehow immune to the contingencies of all things creaturely.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:27 am 
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Antipater -- perhaps speaking to students vs. teachers would've been more helpful :wink:

Antipater wrote:
Have you always interpreted everything always the same?
to the best of my knowledge, yes -- have i made minor revisions? -- yes -- have i made a major change in a doctrinal view? -- technically, yes -- but this was only after i scrutinized the Word on a particular issue (i.e., impeccability of Christ)

i thought of this after asking the Q...you could've cited Origen to my Q as he brought the nonsense of "everything is allegory" into the mix -- me thinks Paul would've disagreed with him but hey

Antipater wrote:
Do we know all there is to know about Biblical interpretation?
no -- i forget the verse where God Tells us more will be Revealed as the end grows near -- i've always said 1 could study a single verse their whole life & not exhaust the meaning found therein -- so the journey is the reward -- Luke 24:32 is so true whenever the Word is discussed, read, heard, etc!

Antipater wrote:
Biblical interpreters are somehow immune to the contingencies of all things creaturely
i have no idea what the blue phrase means -- who talks like that? :P -- i will offer that Biblical interpreters are human & so can walk in the flesh & also make mistakes -- but they have the Spirit whereas not all scientists do -- hence, the odds are in the interpretors' favor

Antipater wrote:
We can (and must) be convinced and humble at the same time
i wholeheartedly agree which is why i don't get worked up over this particularly contentious issue -- sure, i have my opinion -- but i listen to other views & have had my share of physics classes too so attempt to mesh both sides when applicable -- & i revise as needed, something i'm certain all of us do

what bothers me most about this topic is not that i may be right or wrong but how disagreeable Christians can become to each other when immersed in it -- i thought TULIP debates were bad but this 1 trumps it & not in a good way -- so i try & stay close to the shore when wading in as my sarcasm button is far too big & awfully close by


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Strider33 wrote:
Science affects technology. Technology affects commerce. And commerce affects our lives. We can't ignore that.
Operational science affects us. It gives us computers and cars. It allows engineers to design skyscrapers and bridges. But when we talk of origins we move away from operational science and into forensic science.

You can see two forensic scientists take evidence, in a court of law, and give two conflicting stories from the same evidence. Proverbs 18:17 I won't ignore what God has told us because a forensic scientist gives me a conflicting story based on unprovable assumptions driven by the need for "deep time" for his atheistic origin story.


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:17 pm 
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I don't buy the distinction between operational science and forensic science.

Geology is just as much hard science as chemistry is.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Jack Parrish wrote:
... we think we have to accept an old earth since the concept of evolution requires it in order to account for all that evolving that is supposed to have taken place so slowly?


I'vre never heard such an argument from a scientist. It sounds like specious reasoning to me.

I'm pretty sure that the geologists don't rest their case on anything like this. IIRC, the acceptance of the old earth hypothesis predates Origin of Species by something like a century. This is from memory, so I'll have to look it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Strider33 wrote:
I don't buy the distinction between operational science and forensic science.
Then why do two forensic scientists give conflicting accounts regarding the same evidence (going back to the court room example)?


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Strider33 wrote:
I do believe that the bible tells the truth and is the word of God, but that it isn't a comprehensive guide to the universe.
How do you decide when to believe the Bible and when to believe man's opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Theophilus wrote:
Strider33 wrote:
I do believe that the bible tells the truth and is the word of God, but that it isn't a comprehensive guide to the universe.
How do you decide when to believe the Bible and when to believe man's opinion?



I don't have a hard and fast rule. They hardly ever deal with the same subject, anyway.

And when they do, they often say the same thing, only in different language.

BTW, I draw a distinction between "man's opinion" and the conclusions of science, however provisional they may be. (I was trying to think of the word "provisional" earlier when all I could come up with was "tentative").

Let's take this one:

Astrophysicists wrote:
Immediately after the big bang, the universe was filled with electromagnetic radiation.


Gen 1:3 3 God said, “Let there be light.” And there was light! Context (NET)


The scientists don't tell us why the big bang happened. They leave out the part about God. God is beyond their ken. Moses tells us about light, which is a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum. The rest of the electromagnetic spectrum was beyond his ken.

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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Quote:
BTW, I draw a distinction between "man's opinion" and the conclusions of science, however provisional they may be##/quote#We can call the Big Bang model a provisional conclusion of science instead of man's opinion if you want#

When the Bible has water first then light and later the stars and the Big Bang model has singularity first then stars then molten blob then water, you would choose this possibility over what the Bible says, would you?

What does the conclusions of science say about a virgin birth?

Did you know that cosmic background radiation observations is one of the reasons that secular scientists are calling for the Big Bang model to be dumped?
Quote:
But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation.
What happens if you attach the Bible to an idea and that idea becomes known to be wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Whoops. Could a moderator fix the end quote, please?


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 Post subject: Re: Age of the earth
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Theophilus wrote:
Did you know that cosmic background radiation observations is one of the reasons that secular scientists are calling for the Big Bang model to be dumped?


I'm unaware of any such thing. But that doesn't mean much. I haven't followed trends in science for over forty years. I did mention previously that the findings of science are provisional, subject to be revised in the light of new evidence. I'll just let the new assertions make their way through the peer review process and gradually filter down to the popular level.

In the meantime, I'm not going to fret about it, one way or the other.

I'm much more concerned about where the scientific community stands regarding climate change. And there, I'm getting wildly conflicting reports, depending on which sources I consult.

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