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The promise of Wycliffe and Huss fulfilled in the preaching of Luther, Calvin, Menno Simons, until the end of the Religious Wars in Germany: 1400-1650.



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:50 pm 
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03cobra#116 wrote:
By the way, the canons 4-7 of the Council of Nicaea also declare that bishops are appointed by people, not God:

Quote:
4. It is by all means desirable that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops of the province. But if this is difficult because of some pressing necessity or the length of the journey involved, let at least three come together and perform the ordination, but only after the absent bishops have taken part in the vote and given their written consent. But in each province the right of confirming the proceedings belongs to the metropolitan bishop.
5. Concerning those, whether of the clergy or the laity, who have been excommunicated, the sentence is to be respected by the bishops of each province according to the canon which forbids those expelled by some to be admitted by others. But let an inquiry be held to ascertain whether anyone has been expelled from the community because of pettiness or quarrelsomeness or any such ill nature on the part of the bishop. Accordingly, in order that there may be proper opportunity for inquiry into the matter, it is agreed that it would be well for synods to be held each year in each province twice a year, so that these inquiries may be conducted by all the bishops of the province assembled together, and in this way by general consent those who have offended against their own bishop may be recognised by all to be reasonably excommunicated, until all the bishops in common may decide to pronounce a more lenient sentence on these persons. The synods shall be held at the following times: one before Lent, so that, all pettiness being set aside, the gift offered to God may be unblemished; the second after the season of autumn.
6. The ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis shall be maintained, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places since a similar custom exists with reference to the bishop of Rome. Similarly in Antioch and the other provinces the prerogatives of the churches are to be preserved. In general the following principle is evident: if anyone is made bishop without the consent of the metropolitan, this great synod determines that such a one shall not be a bishop. If however two or three by reason of personal rivalry dissent from the common vote of all, provided it is reasonable and in accordance with the church's canon, the vote of the majority shall prevail.
7. Since there prevails a custom and ancient tradition to the effect that the bishop of Aelia is to be honoured, let him be granted everything consequent upon this honour, saving the dignity proper to the metropolitan.



There is nothing in this anywhere, for the record, that says those appointed are NOT divinely appointed. The argument is divinely appointed through men. Because men elect them, does not mean they are not divinely appointed. Give me a break.

That would mean the apostle who replaced Jude was a fraud.

Which position would you try to defend.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:45 pm 
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sheesh, by request back for one more.

Cobra,

Clement gave the example of MOSES appointing those he appointed. Were they Godly appointments or manly.

Judas was replaced. Was it divine or manly that he was replaced?

You can't have it both ways.

Clement was explicit in his example, and in his explanation.

This is pure pedantic petulism.

By all means email me and lets resolve this. I have no issue of desiring to show people the skill of the argument. You make an argument that HANGS YOU IN OTHER PARTS OF YOUR THEOLOGY that you've expressed. And when you get to the other parts you'll deny it and repeat contradictions.

It's just ridiculous.

So email me, I've given the info..

bd


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:49 pm 
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So much happens while I am asleep!

A couple of points re priesthood:
The Pharisees were a theological school, or party ... not the priesthood.
And, the priesthood as seen in the OT did cease. Jesus is now our high priest, and all believers make up the priesthood.

Xian, you say this:
Quote:
There is nothing in this anywhere, for the record, that says those appointed are NOT divinely appointed. The argument is divinely appointed through men. Because men elect them, does not mean they are not divinely appointed. Give me a break.

But your whole argument re Peter, authority etc ect rely on a claim that peter was "divinely appointed" and given authority for the role you ascribe to him? Even if you are correct about Peter, to arrive at want you seem to want, don't we also need to see that he was divinely given some right to pass on what was given to him alone?

Xian, you say this:
Quote:
Who appointed the apostles? Were they to die off and leave the church alone and untended? Or were they to replace them as they did replacing Judas. If you admit they should have replaced Judas, then you grant that the succession was to occur. There is no way around it.

BUT Judas was replaced pre-Pentecost. This is the ONLY time lots were used (the old was of making decisions with urim an thurim - spelling?) - henceforth, the believers met, prayed, and trusted the Holy Spirit's leading (e.g. Council at Jerusalem)

Xian, you say also:
Quote:
UNLESS you totally abandon the apostollic authority and succession of authority. And I used to embrace that argument, but after digging into it, I don't know if that argument can be made scripturally after emotions are removed from it.

Which assumes ONE "side" on the whole issue. The princilples are not ignored just because the application of them is seen to be radically different! An alternative view is that apostolic authority resides in the scriptures and that the idea of "apostoloic succession" is extra-biblical ... nonetheless, any passing on is of the gospel, of the faith itself ... not of an office. So, some of us have also "[dug] into it" and come to a different conclusion.

I must say, this thread had gone a long way from the opening post and over to the sort of thing we saw in the Peter and the Papacy thread! And, imo, is rapidly becoming as unhelpful as that one became.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:06 pm 
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I agree - I believe the thread should be lock since it has strayed so far from its original intent. That is why I have locked the thread.

John C. Blackburn. Moderator

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