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I sincerely hope that you are not saying that because they were illiterate they were stupid? The thing about teaching someone to read is once they have it down they can teach someone else, who in turn could teach someone else, who then again could teach someone else....and so on and so forth.

This is true in any situation that has illiterate people. The church at the time had the power, money and resources to teach people to read but they did not. Why??

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Jennifer Dent
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Ronin answered to my question as to why the church did not assist in helping people learn to read the scriptures:

I don't think that is the case. Many in the church leadership could read. If the church had supported encouraging access to the scriptures in local languages, they could have done that. I have been to Europe and seen the great buildings that the church funded.
So there were people who could read, there was money for other projects, so the church could have supported getting access to the scriptures in local languages if it had been a priority.

Ronin asked why they did not support it, and I said:

and Ronin answered:

You are right, I did not answer because I don't know. It is inexplicable to me. After 25 years of teaching in churches, I have no idea at all why someone claiming to be Christian and being in church leadership would not be actively encouraging people to read the scriptures. So, I don't know. I could propose some possibilities?
1) Were they afraid people would find out what they were doing and teaching was contrary to the teachings of scripture -- for example, that selling indulgences was wrong?
2) Were they afraid they would lose their status if the truth about scriptures were known?
3) Did they fear that the message of Jesus that leaders should first be servants was incompatible with their mode of leadership?
4) Were they afraid that if people of integrity and courage read the truth of scriptures, there would be a reformation?
I don't know.

Ronin objected to my dismissing the subtle points as unimportant because there is a risk he misrepresented my view, so I will provide this additional information:
Ronin wrote:

and I said this was not an accurate representation of what I said.
I did not say: people were not taught how to read.
Some were. So your blanket statement extended past what I wrote.
What I did say was:

This is about the support the church provides to programs and activities. The church build great buildings. The pope started a crusade with the declaration "God wills it." The church trained choirs. The church did not support the translation of the scriptures into local languages nor did they support programs to give people access to the scriptures by expanding reading.

I hope this clarifies the difference. I grant that it is subtle, but your statement that "Because they did not support people in reading the scriptures the people were not taught how to read" is different from "the church did not support programs to make the scriptures accessible to the common man."

So I don't think you intentionally misrepresented my view, but I do feel it was misrepresented.

Why do you think the church did not support the translation of scriptures into local languages and then help people learn to read so they could read the scriptures?

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

No, I am certain that illiterate does not mean stupid. When have I implied that anyways?



Here again I think you and Cobra are proposing this sort of magical educational system on the church by today's standards. The educational system back then was NOT what it is now. How can I be clearer on that? What percentage do you propose the church should have been responsible for?



What is?



What resources? I am going to have to question the blanket statement of time and power. One of the main problems that corroded the church was when the state claimed it. The politics of the state became intertwined with the church. Certainly you ought to take that into account in your critique.

To my mind the medieval times brought about the push for Academics in the Western world. Perhaps we can go in detail as to whether the RCC roll in that or not?

That is clear enough, but not the point.
No one is saying the educational systems were the same as now.
The question is, why did the church do so little about it?
And why did they not support translating the scriptures into local languages?

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

They could have done what? Teach them how to read? Here again I think you assuming much. In order for the church to encourage access to the scriptures they would have to teach the common folk how to read. So, education would have to come first. I am saying this "education" would not be as easy as today. The education system back then was not as advanced and the church had several things going against it. One of them was being attached to the state.



The ability of being able to read does not equal to being able to teach. The church would have needed some sort of organized educational system. The church would have also needed people who could not only read but also teach. The hierarchy in that society and the church at the time would have been major hurdles to accomplish what you are putting forth IMO.

Those are interesting possibilities and to my mind question begging. I doubt we can say any of those for sure to be certain. I do know that such bias loads your assertions with some sort of inclination as to what I have critiqued. See below.



Well, I believe I have been in fact authenticated with my critique of your view because of those "possibilities" you have posited. Indeed all those "possibilities” are negatives, which loads your assertions through and through. I suspected as much and I stand on what I have stated.



Here again a negative tone is put forth by you. And somehow you want to wipe it away by implying all I said was:



Furthermore, now the whole crusade issue has come to light. Now we are shifting towards the "atrocities" of the RCC. I am not condoning the crusades, but I hope you do realize that at that time the Holy Roman Empire was being threatened by the Muslim advancement. In addition, yes the pope supported the crusades, but I also think that the commanders of the knights had vested interested in money and land. Surely, the pope ought not to get all the blame. I am not sure what this has to do with the topic though.



Sorry, but in light of what you have posted I cannot accept that.



I think the discussion between you and I has reached the point where it probably needs to cease. You can have the last word. Thank you for the exchange.

Ronin, the things you are presenting as difficulties don't ring true.
My wife did not have any special training in teaching, but my kids learned to read from her.
Maybe only 50% of the people who learned to read could be effective teachers, but it would not take even that much.


Why are you quitting before answering my question? I tried to answer yours. Here was my question:



I am beginning to wonder if you are simply ashamed of the action of the RCC during this period but are reluctant to state that. I do think their activities were shameful, but I was hoping you would provide your opinion on why they did so little to help people read the scriptures.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

Xian writes, saying that oral rather than written communication is God's way:

If you check "read" and "letters" and "it is written" in a concordance, you will find that there is much encouragement for people to read scriptures -- just as people are encouraged to preach. Both are God's ways. Sometimes God even used stone tablets.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

Those verses ALL reference the history of the faith, in the law and the prophets. None of the verses you'd get would show that it was what our westernized theology calls the NT.

After checking read and letters and it is written in the concordance, I did see much value in the old testaments writings. I do find an interesting passage in ephesians. I think I've mentioned it before, bit maybe not. And cobra, I can't control my tone on here, but I'm really pretty light hearted on this so please take it as mentioned. I'm a bit of a smart-aleck, some sarcasm, I grew up on an island off the coast of greece called Hyperbole. I went to a college and studied philosophy under a great man named Facetious. har har.

Anyway the verse....
Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
Eph 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. (NIV)

What were the people prepared for?
Who prepared them?
Why were they prepared?
When was the preparation successful?
How mature were they to be?

Works.
Church (not them preparing themselves in study. The early church was REPEATEDLY coached to do good works. We see here its part of maturation. Not works to be saved, works to teach you until sanctification.)
To reach unity in the faith and knkowledge of Christ.
When they were mature.
To no longer be infants, tossed by the waves and wind of any teaching or craftiness. To reach the WHOLE MEASURE, of the FULLNESS of Christ. <<<<< read john 17 prayers from Jesus and put them beside this verse and see what you think.

It was the LIFE LIVING that taught them what they needed to know to be mature in christ. AND the level of maturity was fairly profound.