The Bible NETWork ~ Impacting the World for Christ one post at a time!

I'm interested in discussing what people feel was really at stake in the polemics between Luther and the Council of Trent.

Ostensibly, if we Catholics don't trust exclusively in the 'finished work' of Christ's death then we are not saved. (I confess to planning to write an essay on this and am after some profound thoughts please, but this issue also reflects exactly where I am at.)
As if Acts 4:12 actually reads 'And there is salvation in no other doctrine, for there is no other doctrine under heaven given among people by which we must be saved than the doctrine of faith alone.'

Obviously, I believe in and follow Jesus Christ and my beliefs are well-encapsulated in the Nicene Creed. Certainly, I am living my life Christwards expecting death/eternity to reveal Him. However, I certainly don't beleive the Bible asserts that I don't have to do anything other than trust in Christ's death. I base this observation on endlessly reading it!

There seems to be endless exhortations and warnings about holiness, endurance, working out your faith in fear and trembling, being shipwrecked, worse state than in the beginning etc. and of course the expression 'faith alone' only appears in James 2:24 as in what we are not saved by.

My mother is a holiness Pentecostal and they don't seem to be saying there is nothing that a 'born-again' Christian actually has to do either.

I would be interested where you see the NT commanding you to do something other than believe in Christ and His atoning death for salvation?

Christ Himself certainly always pointed to Himself as the center of it all ... 'believe Me' ... 'love Me' .... 'obey Me' .... 'follow Me' ... 'come to Me'. And He just as surely thought of His unique death as the point and the pinnacle of His being sent by the Father.

In Acts 2 when Peter preaches the first sermon in the power of the Holy Spirit .... and is asked ... this is his answer :

"Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off - for all whom the Lord our God will call." (Acts.2:38-39 NIV)

In Acts 4, when Peter and John were defending the faith before the Sanhedrin, this is what he said .... the gospel in a nutshell ...

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" (Acts.4:12 NIV)

I know the arguments used by churches who have a sacramentalist view of salvation .... but it can also be shown from other examples in Scripture that baptism is a form of obedience, not a means of salvation ... for example, Cornelius and his household were not baptised until after they received the Holy Spirit - and so by necessity already saved.

Of course, the main difference between us is that Catholics and EOC accept tradition as well as Scripture, and Protestants accept the authority of Scripture alone.

Certainly God is sovereign, and He it is that calls His own. So there are children of God among Catholics, EOC and Protestants. Only God can see the heart - and it is the Holy Spirit regenerating the heart that matters.

"You however are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ ..... Because those tho are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God ... "(Rom.8:9-17 NIV)

So you see, the difference is much more fundamental than between Catholic and Protestant.

in Christ

Dinah

Thanks for your reply. For the time being I can't answer the wide scope of your response; I need to get on with writing my paper, but I will bear in mind some of your points which are excellent as I write this.

I will answer later with a precise of my essay's main points.

Exactly!!! Amen!

Nowhere does Christ ask people to believe IN THE FINISHED WORK OF HIS DEATH. The ONLY requirement for salvation is 'believe Me' ... 'love Me' .... 'obey Me' .... 'follow Me' ... 'come to Me'. As you accurately put it.

The object of our faith is CHRIST, not "the finished work of His death".

I don't know how relevant this comment may be for your paper, but the debate between Luther and the Catholic Church was also of particular importance because it had to do with what was being taught by the church and how that impacted on what was being practiced - Luther saw a contradiction in what was being taught and accepted and what the bible said - hence his defence of "Here I stand..." - which crystallized the issue of authorityabout which Dinah writes (the church tradition plus bible/ bible plus church council/ bible alone etc debate).

One thing that never changes, even when we have been a Christian for many years, is that Jesus is the beginning and the end and all that matters for salvation. As a babe in Christ, the simplest "come" is all that is needed, and all that needs to be understood, and after that we can never be reminded of this wondrous truth too often - indeed, we need to hear it often as a corrective to our instinct to try and "do" and "earn" so that we can take some imagined "credit" to ourselves!

But as time goes by, the things we label "doctrine" become important as our knowledge deepens and we long to understnd and know God better.
And, if one is called to teach and preach, then it becomes very important that one's understanding is firmly grounded in the scripture and under the influence of the Holy Spirit. And it is because one's understanding of "justification by faith alone" impacts on so much else that it becomes so such a fundamental issue.

The Christian is obligated to live a life that is worthy of the gospel ... so much of the episitles is about how we do that ... "Now I belong to Christ, how should I live?" But it is never the basis on which our salvation is won - that is only ever on the obedience even unto death of our Lord Jesus.

_________________
Avid Reader

“Lord, in my zeal for love of truth, let me not forget the truth about love.” - Thomas Aquinas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forum Code of Conduct
Forum Statement of Beliefs

Well said Avid...

Well said. I agree entirely yet other than the 1st clause [believe Me] surely, this is a refutation of the 'faith alone' teaching.

The other verbs such as love, obey, follow are actions. They are required, and indeed necessary: they are not optional. Surely, our Discipleship requires work. The Scripture is full of warnings if we fail to be holy or endure.

The "work" of christian life in Christ is not FOR salvation, but because of it. Jesus did not call us to work out our salvation, but called us to work because we are saved. All of the characteristics of a true follower of Christ are a result of the supernatural change that occurs when Christ enters their life, not a necessity in order for Christ to come.

"God demonstrates his love for us in this- while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

We all disobey-if disobedience is sin, then by sinning we earn the death we deserve. It's the old Romans road, God is not waiting for us to get it together. He realizes we can't work out our own salvation, he took care of it in a way that only a loving God could.

Belief in "salvation by own two hands" also takes the focus from what God did to what we think we can do.

Well said!

The way I believe is:That we can't earn salvation...Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory,but not before God. Romans4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Romans4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. If we could earn salvation why did Jesus die on the cross?

All scripture taken from the KJV

There are millions of people around the world who do not believe in justification by faith alone, yet who do believe many orthodox truths about Jesus and the Bible, including the fact that Jesus died for our sins and rose bodily from the dead.

I think this thread has shown that, biblically, justification is through faith, by grace ... and that all the works that should inevitably follow are part of what we call discipleship. A person is saved by the death of Jesus alone and justified by the mercy of God - the only "work" being to accept what God so graciously offers.

A person is not saved by what they understand about the doctrine of justification by faith - but nonetheless, the doctrine is true to the teachings of scripture. We will not be judged on our doctrinal "purity" but accepted on the reality of our relationship with Jesus, but pursuing accurate biblical doctrine is one sure means of growing in our faith. Maturity in the faith is accompanied by a growing understanding of who God is and how he relates to his people. To use an analogy: the goal is to be like Jesus ... the text book is the bible ... the means the Holy Spirit ... the classroom is the church ... the world in which we live the school-ground.

Lightinboy, what you state may indeed be true, indeed James tells us even Satan "believes" truths about God - but that is not where we ought choose to stay. Having believed the truth, we find that we love it, and so respond by willing service to the Lord.

Believing the elementary doctrines, the sheer basics, and not moving forward is not a healthy place to stop - even if there are millions in that osition! The writer to the Hebrews encourages us to move on from milk and baby food, and to become eaters of solid food:

Hebrews 5:12 12 For though you should in fact be teachers by this time, you need someone to teach you the beginning elements of God’s utterances. You have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. Context (NET)

Hebrews 6:1 1 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, Context (NET)

And Paul says the same sort of thing, though he is of course speaking more of the outworking of our faith in how we behave:

1 Corinthians 13:10-12 10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. Context (NET)

Indeed, this teaching of Paul is particularly apt for places like this where we interact with near anonymous people over matters about which there is often a different understanding and differenting abilities in our ability to express ourselves in writing - to write what we see as the truth and to ask honest questions are obvious requirements, to do so with love no less so. And always, the needs of other must come first - we must not put the faith of others at risk, cause anyone to stumble, nor lead people down false trails. It is in this regard that getting our doctrine as right as we can matters, both here and in the "real" world.

Therefore, I would suggest that there is always a need to encourage folk to discover the truth of biblical doctrines such as justification by faith alone. By understanding what scipture teaches they will see the enormity of the grace of God, the wonders of his love, and participate in the joys that come from submission and obedience to his will. But understanding and accepting such doctrines is not the means of salvation - that is by grace alone.

_________________
Avid Reader

“Lord, in my zeal for love of truth, let me not forget the truth about love.” - Thomas Aquinas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forum Code of Conduct
Forum Statement of Beliefs

True?

If so, why bother with all the Catholic stuff?

because none of us have the knowledge or capacity to say exactly when an individual has the Gospel so confused that it is not the Gospel. Neither can any of us have the machine to know the sincerity/reality of a persons experience.

We pray that through conversation - a greater assurance may be acheived.

John

_________________
"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:6b

Pastor John C. Blackburn

We should bother with all the Catholic stuff because none of us have the knowledge or capacity to say exactly when an individual has the Gospel so confused that it is not the Gospel?
None of us can know whether our faith is sincere and real?
A greater assurance may be achieved through conversation?
Conversation with who?