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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:28 am 
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Trenton wrote:
Paul is using the rhetorical “I” to illustrate the practical situation of the devout Jew under the Law.


I have seen this argument posited a few times in recent years; each time it has been by those leaning towards a postmodern evangelical ideology. There are several serious problems with this view:


1) There is nothing in the context that would indicate a shift to the rhetorical "I" and the description of being a "slave" to the flesh in Chapter 7 is very much just a continuation of the discussion of chapter 6. In Chapter 6 Paul describes those who struggle as ones who have already come into faith in Christ.

2) This view is a relatively new idea that represents the "postmodern" reader centric interpretive method.

3) Paul's (and Christ's) views of what it means to be free from the Law are very different from the postmodern view of being "free" from the Law. Paul in Roman's 6 makes it clear that being free from the Law does not mean that we have the freedom to break the Law, and Christ in Mt. 5-7 makes it clear that believers are called to higher standard i.e. outward obedience is not enough to make one righteous, it is a heart attitude of obedience that should reflect righteousness that comes from the new life in us. Scripture teaches that our freedom in Christ changes how we obey God's Law. Romans 6 and Mt. 5 both make it clear that our "freedom" is not a freedom to transgress God's law. Paul's point in Roman's 6 and 7 is that salvation does not come from being obedient to the Law (something no one can do). The purpose of the Law was so that we could know what sin is and with new life in Christ that knowledge should bring the struggle, described in chapter 7, to over come our sinful desires. Chapter 8 tells us that the power to overcome sin does not come from us, but from Christ who is in us. Nowhere in Scripture are we told that the freedom that we gain when we come into fellowship with Christ, is a "freedom" to sin.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:45 am 
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Edwin wrote:
"Is it possible for a Christian to stop sinning?"

No it is not possible, and Scripture confirms this


I do not think this is what Scripture says. I believe Scripture teaches that it is entirely possible, in Christ, to stop sinning but that no man ever chooses to do so. While the practical outcome of these different perspectives is the same i.e. both recognize that no man will ever stop sinning. The perspective you presented leads to a sort of fatalism i.e that one sins because they MUST sin. The bible teaches that we have the power, in Christ, to overcome sin but that we too often choose sin even when we have been given the freedom to not make that choice.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Benelchi wrote:
Trenton wrote:
Paul is using the rhetorical “I” to illustrate the practical situation of the devout Jew under the Law.


I have seen this argument posited a few times in recent years; each time it has been by those leaning towards a postmodern evangelical ideology.


The view that I presented above was nearly the exclusive view of the Church up until the Reformation when the theology of John Calvin swept through Europe, and since that time, it has been the predominant view of the Church. Paul’s letter to the church in Rome was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians born, raised and educated in an ancient Hellenistic culture. That these Christians interpreted the man in Romans 7:14-25 to be an unregenerate Jew is proven by the writings of Origen (184-254), Chrysostom (347-407), and Theodoret (393-458). The very early Latin Church Father, Tertullian (160-223), also interpreted the man in Romans 7:14-25 to be an unregenerate Jew. None of the Early Greek Church Fathers interpreted the man in Romans 7:14-25 to be Paul.

All of your objections to the historical view of the Church have been more than adequately answered in the following academic commentaries on Paul’s Epistle to the Romans:

Tholuck, Frederick August Gotttreu. St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. Philadelphia: Sorin and Ball, 1844. Translated from the Second Revised and Corrected Edinburgh Edition by Rev. Robert Menzies. 432 pages.

Olshausen, Hermann. Studies in The Epistle to the Romans. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1849. 431 pages.

Ewbank, William Withers. A Commentary on The Epistle of Paul The Apostle to the Romans: With a New Translation and Explanatory Notes. London: John W. Parker, West Strand, 1850. 428 pages.

Ford, James. S. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Illustrated from Divines of the Church of England. London: Joseph Masters, Aldersgate Street, and Bond Street, 1862. 704 pages.

Colenso, J. W. St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans: Newly Translated, and Explained from a Missionary Point of View. New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1863. 261 Pages.

Pridham, Arthur. Notes and Reflections on The Epistle to the Romans. London: William Yapp, 1864. 473 pages.

Stuart, Moses. A Commentary on The Epistle to the Romans, with a Translation and Various Excursus, Sixth Edition, Corrected and Considerably Enlarged. London: William Tegg, 1865. 672 pages.

Barmby, J. Romans (The Pulpit Commentary, edited by H. D. M. Spence and Joseph S. Exell). Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1880-1919. 475 pages.

Godet, Frederic Louis. Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. 1883. Translated from French edition of 1878-1880. 515 pages.

Riddle, M. B. The New International Revision Commentary on the New Testament, Vol. VI, The Epistle to the Romans. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1884. 256 pages.

Meyer, Heinrich August Wilhelm. Critical and Exegetical Hand-Book to The Epistle to the Romans. Translated from the Fifth German Edition by Rev. John C. Moore, and Rev. Edwin Johnson; the translation revised and edited by William P. Dickson, with a Preface and Supplementary Notes to the American Edition by Timothy Dwight. New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1884. 588 pages.

Beet, Joseph Agar. A Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. London, Hodder and Stoughton, 1885. 418 pages.

Gifford, E. H. The Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. London: John Murray, 1886. 238 pages.

Liddon. H. P. Explanatory Analysis of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1899. 309 pages.

Gore, Charles. St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Vol. I. London: John Murray, 1899. 326 pages.

Sanday, William, and Arthur C. Headlam. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Epistle to the Romans, Fifth Edition (The International Critical Commentary series). Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1902. 450 pages.

Sanday, William, and Arthur C. Headlam. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Epistle to the Romans, Ninth Edition (The International Critical Commentary series). New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1904. 450 pages.

Dodd, C.H. The Epistle to the Romans (The Moffatt New Testament Commentary series). London, Hodder and Stoughton, 1932. 246 pages.

Boylan, Patrick. St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, Translation and Commentary. Dublin: M. H. Gill and Son, LTD, 1947. 306 pages.

Käsemann, Ernst. Commentary on Romans. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1980. Translated and edited by Geoffrey W. Bromiley from the Fourth German Edition of An Die Römer, 1980. 457 pages.

Fitzmyer, Joseph A. Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary (The Anchor Yale Bible series). New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993. 793 pages.

Moo, Douglas J. The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary of the New Testament series). Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1996. 1012 pages.

Jewett, Robert. Romans: A Commentary (Hermeneia Commentary series). Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2007. 1144 pages.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:57 am 
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Trenton, you say,

"The concept of man inheriting a sinful nature from Adam is not found in the Bible"

Then what about,

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:49 am 
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GaryM
Quote:
This is a simplistic story but please realize the most spiritual person can and will fall into temptation and sin.


I can't seem to understand why this would be 1Corinthians 10:11-13 If I know What sin is why would I continue in sin wouldn't this make God out to be a lire?

If Scripture is true and I believe it is and these things in the past occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things, Christians has to see that no one takes you captive throygh deceptive philosophy.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:37 am 
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Good point cw-nf.

During Paul's time there were a number of false philosophies such as Gnosticism, Stoicism, Epicureanism and other false notions.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:56 am 
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Edwin wrote:
Trenton, you say,

"The concept of man inheriting a sinful nature from Adam is not found in the Bible"

Then what about…?



Romans 5:12-19, the foundational passage for the doctrine of original sin, says absolutely nothing about any corruption of the will as a consequence of Adam’s sin in the garden,

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

According to Paul in this passage, the consequence of Adam’s sin was condemnation leading to death; it was NOT the corruption of the will—the will was left unchanged and man today has the same freedom of choice that Adam had—to be faithful to God and His word; or to rebel against God and His word and commit sinful acts, including the sin of disbelief.

Compare the words of Irenaeus,


4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness, for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbor.” And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Chapter 37, paragraph 4).

So, it is asked, what did happen when Adam sinned by eating the forbidden fruit?

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Paul argues here that we all sinned in Adam, the proof being that we all die, including those who lived before the Law was given, and sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, the ONLY sin for which those who sinned before the Law was given would have paid the penalty of death is the sin that they committed in Adam. Although the Law had not yet been given when Adam sinned, he was specifically told by God,

Gen. 2:16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Eve, and then Adam, sinned because they were tempted and allowed themselves to be seduced by the powers of darkness. The consequence is that they were cast out of the garden and lost their immortality. Paul tells us that we sinned in Adam and ultimately die as a consequence. He does not tell us that we inherited a disposition to sin.

Rom. 6:23 says nothing about us inheriting a disposition to sin.

1 Cor. 15:22 very briefly says what was said in Rom. 5:12-19.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)


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