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Authorship of the Pastoral Epistles

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03cobra#116

Post subject: Re: Authorship of the Pastoral Epistles

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:04 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:54 pm
Posts: 2193
Location: Atlanta
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Non-denominational
Name of your church: http://northpoint.org

Quote:

You are arguing that because the pastorals were not mentioned (quoted) before 170, the early Church doubted them as authentic.

Once again, you have chosen to object to something I did not say.
Your practice of misstating something as if I said it is not helpful, so I am not sure how prudent it is to continue to indulge you.
You seem to be reading what you want to into my posts rather than what is there.

"no one doubted is indefensible"
When you said

Quote:

Pauline authorship of the pastorals was not doubted until the 19th century

If Pauline authorship was not doubted until the 19th century, then no one doubted the authorship until the 19th century.

You have no way of knowing whether their authenticity was not doubted by anyone, so you cannot say with certainty that the books were not doubted before the 19th century.

I think the more likely case is that they were not mentioned earlier because they did not exist earlier.

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Cobra (the car, not the poisonous reptile)
all scripture is NRSV unless otherwise noted

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psychobobicus

Post subject: Re: Authorship of the Pastoral Epistles

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:40 pm

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:35 pm
Posts: 1376
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Anglican
Name of your church: Currently seeking a biblical church

Quote:

I think the more likely case is that they were not mentioned earlier because they did not exist earlier.

Then neither did most of the NT.

If I am misinterpreting you, what could you possibly mean by:

Quote:

Since we have no record of any church father mentioning them until 100 years after Paul died, I think the idea that no one doubted is indefensible.

Anti, you are correct.

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DailyBread

Post subject: Re: Authorship of the Pastoral Epistles

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:29 pm

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:41 am
Posts: 1328
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Catholic
Name of your church: Catholic Church

Many scholars doubt the Pauline authorship of 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus; they have sound reasons for the doubts that they express, so what's wrong with expressing such doubts? As far as I can see there is no implied lack of scholarly integrity in it and no lack of Christian faith either.

My personal perspective is that the three pastoral epistles are Pauline, I base my judgement on tradition and on the fact that these epistles are canonical. But I am not willing to cast doubt on the honesty or the faithfulness of any scholars who hold a view that is different from mine. I think that the balance of the evidence does not really make it possible to arrive at a definitive answer to the question - mind you, I am no scholar myself, so my knowledge and appreciation of the evidence is mediated through the expressed opinions of the scholars that I have read.

Cheers

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The proof of love is in the works. Where love exists, it works great things. But when it ceases to act, it ceases to exist.

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psychobobicus

Post subject: Re: Authorship of the Pastoral Epistles

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:21 am

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:35 pm
Posts: 1376
Faith: Christian
Ecclesiology/Denomination: Anglican
Name of your church: Currently seeking a biblical church

DB, it is fine to express doubt, but when the evidence is weighed, if that doubt is shown to be in error, to continue to hold it is, illogical and irrational. As far as I know, the scholars who doubt Pauline authorship of the pastorals do so almost entirely using "internal" evidence - comparing Paul's "language." External evidence - despite the erroneous objections of some here - is very strong with the Pastorals. The fact that it doesn't "sound" like Paul, IMO, can be attributed to the fact that these are personal letters to a very close friend, at the end of a man's life - which he knows will most likely be martyrdom. I know my writing is completely different here than it is when I am writing to a friend, so why would we arrogantly deny Paul would do the same? Read his letters to Timothy. In the Greek and English, the language is clearly tender and personal. Who would want to, and be able to, write this other than Paul:

Quote:

Be diligent to come to me quickly; for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica—Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia. Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry. And Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus. Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.
Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works. You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words.
At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them.
But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that the message might be preached fully through me, and that all the Gentiles might hear. Also I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!
Come Before Winter
Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.
Do your utmost to come before winter.
Eubulus greets you, as well as Pudens, Linus, Claudia, and all the brethren.
The Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
2 Ti 4:9-22.

This is probably one of the last things Paul ever sent to anyone.

_________________
Στηθι εδραιος, ως ακμων τυπτομενος. - Ignatius |II Timothy 4:2| All Scripture is NKJV, unless a translation from the Greek text or otherwise noted.
M.A. Theological Studies (New Testament), Faith Seminary, Tacoma WA
Member, Evangelical Theological Society, North American Patristics Society.
Assistant Editor and contributing author of several published and forthcoming publications.

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