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 Post subject: Re: Paradise on Earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:06 am 
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Ah, so your agenda comes out finally (I wondered if you'd ever return to us ka527al).

You will note on the punctuation issue that our discussion has actually centered around the grammar and literary flow which leads to the modern punctuation...something I'm supposing you weren't actually trained to deal with in the books you are citing. So your citations really have nothing to do with any of the discussions that happened after your drive-by posting.

The quote by Reinhardt is rather ridiculous as it asserts that Christ certainly did not understand paradise to be a subdivision of the realm of the dead, but rather the restoration of a paradise on earth.” And he knows this how??? Actually he seems to speak of the presence of God Himself and not in speaking of "paradise" (though this will...in the eschaton...become a "paradise" on earth).

It is clear that the bodily ascension had not happened (as the resurrection had not happened). This in no way precludes the soul/spirit or what have you from actually being given to the Father (as in fact Jesus commended his to the Father just before dying on that very day). It is to say that there is reward of blessedness in paradise immediately upon death, just as their is punishment that awaits the wicked immediately upon death. But in both cases neither receive the fullness of what awaits them at the resurrection and the last judgment. It is, as it were, only in part and awaiting the consummation of the ages.

As to your "requirements" for the thief's salvation...the confession of faith towards Jesus that he might be received by him into Christ's kingdom was sufficient for our Lord and so it is sufficient without anything further. Would you really add to what the Master required? Can he not pay what he wishes to those who worked all day and those who only worked but for a little?

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 Post subject: Re: Paradise on Earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:19 am 
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I would like to quote John Cassian (The Conferences of John Cassian-Part 1 - Chapter XIV. Of the continuance of the soul):
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Wherefore every one while still existing in this body should already be aware that he must be committed to that state and office, of which he made himself a sharer and an adherent while in this life, nor should he doubt that in that eternal world he will be partner of him, whose servant and minister he chose to make himself here: according to that saying of our Lord which says “If any man serve Me, let him follow Me, and where I am, there shall My servant also be.”(John 12:26) For as the kingdom of the devil is gained by consenting to sin, so the kingdom of God is attained by the practice of virtue in purity of heart and spiritual knowledge. But where the kingdom of God is, there most certainly eternal life is enjoyed, and where the kingdom of the devil is, there without doubt is death and the grave. And the man who is in this condition, cannot praise the Lord, according to the saying of the prophet which tells us: “The dead cannot praise Thee, O Lord; neither all they that go down into the grave (doubtless of sin). But we,” says he, “who live (not forsooth to sin nor to this world but to God) will bless the Lord, from this time forth for evermore: for in death no man remembereth God: but in the grave (of sin) who will confess to the Lord?”(Psalm 6:6; 113:17, 18; 115:17) i.e., no one will. For no man even though he were to call himself a Christian a thousand times over, or a monk, confesses God when he is sinning: no man who allows those things which the Lord hates, remembereth God, nor calls himself with any truth the servant of Him, whose commands he scorns with obstinate rashness: in which death the blessed Apostle declares that the widow is involved, who gives herself to pleasure, saying “a widow who giveth herself to pleasure is dead while she liveth.”(1 Tim. 5:6) There are then many who while still living in this body are dead, and lying in the grave cannot praise God; and on the contrary there are many who though they are dead in the body yet bless God in the spirit, and praise Him, according to this: “O ye spirits and souls of the righteous, bless ye the Lord:”(Dan. 3:86 LXX) and “every spirit shall praise the Lord.”(Psalm 150:6) And in the Apocalypse the souls of them that are slain are not only said to praise God but to address Him also.(Cf. Rev. 6:9, 10) In the gospel too the Lord says with still greater clearness to the Sadducees: “Have ye not read that which was spoken by God, when He said to you: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living: for all do live unto Him.”(Matt. 22:31, 32) Of whom also the Apostle says: “wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city.”(Heb. 11:16) For that they are not idle after the separation from this body, and are not incapable of feeling, the parable in the gospel shows, which tells us of the beggar Lazarus and Dives clothed in purple, one of whom obtained a position of bliss, i.e., Abraham’s bosom, the other is consumed with the dreadful heat of eternal fire.(Cf. Luke 16:19 sq.) But if you care too to understand the words spoken to the thief “To-day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise,”(Luke 23:43) what do they clearly show but that not only does their former intelligence continue with the souls, but also that in their changed condition they partake of some state which corresponds to their actions and deserts? For the Lord would certainly never have promised him this, if He had known that his soul after being separated from the flesh would either have been deprived of perception or have been resolved into nothing. For it was not his flesh but his soul which was to enter Paradise with Christ. At least we must avoid, and shun with the utmost horror, that wicked punctuation of the heretics, who, as they do not believe that Christ could be found in Paradise on the same day on which He descended into hell, thus punctuate “Verily, I say unto you to-day,” and making a stop apply “thou shalt be with Me in Paradise,” in such a way that they imagine that this promise was not fulfilled at once after he departed from this life, but that it will be fulfilled after the resurrection,* as they do not understand what before the time of His resurrection He declared to the Jews, who fancied that He was hampered by human difficulties and weakness of the flesh as they were: “No man hath ascended into heaven, but He who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven:”(John 3:13) by which He clearly shows that the souls of the departed are not only not deprived of their reason, but that they are not even without such feelings as hope and sorrow, joy and fear, and that they already are beginning to taste beforehand something of what is reserved for them at the last judgment, and that they are not as some unbelievers hold resolved into nothing after their departure from this life:** but that they live a more real life, and are still more earnest in waiting on the praises of God. ---
*The punctuation which Cassian here mentions only to reject and which is rightly characterized by Alford as “worse than silly,” is also mentioned by Theophylact. Com. in loc.
**Augustine (De Hæres. c. lix.) speaks of “Seleuciani” or “Hermiani” as denying a visible Paradise, and a future resurrection; and again in c. lxxxiii. he speaks of some Arabian heretics, as teaching that the soul died and was dissolved (dissolvi) with the body and that it would at the end of the world be revived and rise again. These were the heretics of whom Eusebius speaks in his Eccl. History Book VI. c. xxxvii., where he tells us that they were successfully refuted by Origen. It is probably to this last error that Cassian is here making allusion.
(Schaff NPNF211 pp. 301-2)


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 Post subject: Re: Paradise on Earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:45 pm 
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I reckon that the best way to translate the verse is this: "He answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.' " Luke 23:43 NJB

JWs like to obfuscate issues with numerous irrelevant and biased citations and partial quotes. This discussion has not been spared that indignity. I don't have the NET notes, perhaps somebody can post the notes for the above verse (unless that's already been done).

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 Post subject: Re: Paradise on Earth
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Here are the two pertinent notes on Luke 23:43.
Quote:
3 sn Jesus gives more than the criminal asked for, because the blessing will come today, not in the future. He will be among the righteous. See the note on today in 2:11.

4 sn In the NT, paradise is mentioned three times. Here it refers to the abode of the righteous dead. In Rev 2:7 it refers to the restoration of Edenic paradise predicted in Isa 51:3 and Ezek 36:35. In 2 Cor 12:4 it probably refers to the “third heaven” (2 Cor 12:2) as the place where God dwells.


The note referenced at Luke 2:11 says the following:
Quote:
1 sn The Greek word for today (σήμερον, shmeron) occurs eleven times in the Gospel of Luke (2:11; 4:21; 5:26; 12:28; 13:32-33; 19:5, 9; 22:34, 61; 23:43) and nine times in Acts. Its use, especially in passages such as 2:11, 4:21, 5:26; 19:5, 9, signifies the dawning of the era of messianic salvation and the fulfillment of the plan of God. Not only does it underscore the idea of present fulfillment in Jesus’ ministry, but it also indicates salvific fulfillment present in the church (cf. Acts 1:6; 3:18; D. L. Bock, Luke [BECNT], 1:412; I. H. Marshall, Luke, [NIGTC], 873).

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 Post subject: Re: Paradise on Earth
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:39 pm 
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DailyBread wrote:
I don't have the NET notes... <snip>
Phil, all of the NET notes are available online at http://net.bible.org/home.php. And I'm sure you've noticed the pop-up boxes of the NET verses when you roll your cursor over scripture references in the forum posts. At the bottom of each of those is a "Read More" link that will take you to the verse(s) in the online NET Bible where you can see the notes.

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 Post subject: Re: Paradise on Earth
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:12 pm 
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ka527al wrote:
What does Jesus mean in Luke 23:43?

And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

Could anyone answer this question?

Well, let me just stir the muck around for a bit.

Punctuation is a late addition. Comparing with the earliest fragments, papyrii and manuscripts one will find periods, commas and the like among the missing. Now whether this was because Koine didn't have a system for punctuation, or to save space in the codex overall, thereby reducing the price of the copy, is really immaterial. It's immaterial because we have what we have. We can't sit around wishing it were different, or falling into the "would've, could've, should've" fantasy.

What is most telling is that early in it's history the Watchtower used, without much fuss, the King James Version. I know, because I own a copy.

I also believe that the Watchtower with it many heterodox doctrines, have has left orthodoxy well behind, placing into a cult.

I have upwards of 50 versions of the scripture, including the NWT. And with the exception of those versions that are classified as paraphrases, none punctuate this verse the way the NWT does. This leads me to think that the Watchtower has an agenda translating this verse the way they do, much the same as they do with John 1:1.

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 Post subject: Re: Paradise on Earth
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:10 pm 
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If I may stir the pot just a little more. Assuming that the comma is placed before today, will we our perception of time remain as it is now? Perhaps a century will pass in an instant after we have left this life. Any thoughts?

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