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Lots of difficulties come from our prior understanding getting in the way!

That's not fair, really, to leave it at that! I'll offer one example. The prior understanding that the only reason for putting forth a condition, is so that people will fulfill the condition, and go on ... a prior understanding, especially in this case!

What come to my mind is that many people fail to count the cost.
Simply put if you are not willing to put God first whether plans or people how can you truly say I follow Christ.
Salt is excellent....but if the salt goes flat---it's useless.

Have you ever seen a flat Christian?
He is risen---I an risen in Him---why should I cleave unto the dust?

One problem with the "willingness" idea, as it is commonly applied to verses like Luke 14:26,27,28,33, is that it's simply not there. Jesus didn't say that. He just plainly didn't say, for example, "if anyone comes to Me, and is not willing to hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, ...."

Willingness is a watered-down version of what Jesus said in 14:26. Similarly, Jesus did not mention whether someone was "willing" to complete the tower in 14:28. In 14:27, He doesn't say that the condition is "being willing to take up" his cross, but to take it up. In 14:33, it is not being "willing to give up," or renounce, but to give up or renounce. All this substitutions water down what Jesus actually said. I don't think we're allowed to do that.

Difficulty #1. If we read and want to be Christ's disciples, there are three barriers at least in Luke 14:25-35, possibly four, which must be read as barriers to being Christ's disciples. They are not methods of being Christ's disciples, but barriers to being such.

The three barriers are Lk 14:26, 27, 33. The possible fourth is the incurability (Lk 14:34) and uselessness (Lk 14:35) of tasteless salt.

Difficulty #2. The "cannot be" sayings are hard to combine together.

Is it describing discipleship barrier that in some cases, but not all, bars those not going to one's death as an accused criminal? In some cases, but not all, bars those not renouncing or giving up all one's possessions? In some cases, but not all, not hating one's closest family and entire life? Or is it describing a life that is the combination of all together at once?

Wouldn't a person be barred from being Christ's disciple if they have never hated their own children, for example, even when they have renounced or given up all possessions and been unjustly sentenced to the death of a criminal?

Difficulty #3. The "cannot be" sayings may be combined with a "no recovery for failure" clause.

This is from the conclusion part of the section, Lk 14:34-35. It is similar to Lk 9:62.

Difficulty #4. The "cannot be" sayings are individually formidable, even without being combined with one another.

They are stated as extrema. "All" his own possessions. All closest natural family associations and association to oneself. The closest possible thing to the most shameful death.

Difficulty #5. If we say the barriers as not surmountable by us, what is the result?

Are we being encouraged to think about discipleship another means, similar to the way the conversation goes in Matthew 19:23-26, regarding salvation by another means? Or is it that we are being dissuaded to use "I'm Christ's disciple" as a badge.

Difficulty #6. Are we engaging in an anachronism in applying this directly to ourselves, when it might have been a saying specifically to Christ's earthly followers at that time, the "many" of Luke 14:25?

Hopefully this is a helpful set of questions!

what great questions .... and a great discussion!

on first reading of the passage ... what came to mind was the first verse :

"large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said ..."(Lk.14:25 niv)

This is the peak of Jesus' popularity, when large crowds are following Him, and many prospective disciples are coming forward ... but they are what we would call "fair weather disciples" - and Jesus knows this! ... so He sets out to sort them out (a similar passage is John 6 ... would suggest reading) .... one thing I find so different about Jesus and our current methods, is that Jesus never wants followers at all costs, no Jesus steadfastly sets out the difficulties.

Have you ever wondered why? .... I think it is because Jesus knows that otherwise people will start out, and as soon as difficulties come they will fall away - and in that case they will be worse off, because it is as if they are vaccinated against Christianity. We are seeing the results of this in our own day, when all people were asked to do was to "pray the sinner's prayer" and that was it ... in the early church there was a long period of discipling and learning before a person was accepted into church.

Will probably not be able to answer your questions (post limit) ... you may have to break them up ... but quickly ...

1. the basis of our desire to be disciples must be Christ Himself - not any material benefits ... in John 6, Peter answers well : "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God" (Jn.6:68-69 NIV)

re the cross ... this demand is stark .... if the need arises (and it does not for everyone see John 21:15-23), then following Christ must be more important than life itself.

It is the same for the "hate" pictures ... not that we have to hate our family, but if there ever comes a time when a choice must be made .... then Christ again, must be first ... we must give up not only our own lives, but also entrust those we love to Him.

re the salt ... I think this is Jesus describing the result of not facing up to these choices - it results in lukewarm, half-hearted Christians who will not last.

The thing is, the Christian life in our own power is impossible .... that is why we need, and we are given the Holy Spirit - but we must understand this, and cling to God no matter what.

in Christ

Dinah

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ClairBear


All terms which define the emotions or affections are comparative.
Natural affections is to be as compared with the believer's devotedness to Christ as if it were hate.
Matthew 12:47-50 Christ illustrates this principle in His own person---in Christ the natural affections are sanctified and lifted to the leval of the divine love John 14:26-27; Ephesians 5:25-26
Christ intimate the formation of the new family of faith which over-stepping mere racial claims receives "whosoever" will be His disciples.
The time of seed-sowing which began with our Lords personal ministry and ends with the "harvest" the result is the mingled tares and wheat---in the sphere of Christian profession.

To labour in God's vineyard (Israel) Isaiah 5:1-7 is one thing---to go forth sowing the seed of the Word in a field which is the world, quite another Matthew 10:5