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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:51 pm 
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If I believe in the deuterocanonicals (apocryphal) books to be inspired by God but I also believe in scripture alone,
then how do I reconcile 2 Macaabees 12:38-46? If Jesus is our atonement for sin in the New Testament (which I believe,how do I reconcile this with 2 Macaabees 12:38-46.

When I tried to put my commentary to this passage,the holy spirit came to me and said "Please don't write your own opinion on the matter."

I would like to leave your a final note: I love my Holy Father and he has blessed me through the years
(The holy spirit knocking on my door,When Iam tempted by the devil to do bad things,Jesus through
the holy spirit helps me to decide not to do it.,The holy spirit wants me to spend time reading his word
and devotionals every day. Iam grateful for the Lords support because without him Iam nothing.)

Since Iam afraid of the devil snatching away from God,I always rely on these for hope.

He will never leave me or forsake me. Hebrews 13:5-6

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Here is the passage:
Quote:
After Esdris and his men had been fighting for a long time and were weary, Judas called upon the Lord to show himself their ally and leader in the battle.
Then, raising a battle cry in his ancestral language, and with songs, he charged Gorgias' men when they were not expecting it and put them to flight.
Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the week was ending, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there.
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.
But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

I think a related question may be raised from the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:
Quote:
Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?


I think a person who chooses to reject 2 Maccabees based on the passage in chapter 12 about sacrifices for the dead, if consistency is a goal, would have to think about this passage from 1 Corinthians in the same way.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:37 am 
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Well, if you want to take it as authoritative scripture. You can't reconcile it.

What was the sin?

It was unconfessed, unrepented idolatry.

Such is a mortal sin.

Passages in authoritative scripture make it plain that idolatry is most serious. Scripture tells us idolaters will not be in heaven.

Gal 5:19-21 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God! Context (NET)


1 cor 6:9-10 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Context (NET)


Even the Catholics who try to use this passage to teach their innovation called purgatory and that praying for the dead can forgive sins, believe unconfessed, unrepented idolatry is a mortal sin.

How does one reconcile the idea that a book is authoritative scripture which would be God breathed through a prophet with the fact that there were no prophets at that time? From Malachi to John the Baptist, no prophet was to be found. It's even said as such in the apocrypha. 1 Maccabees makes three references that there was no prophet.

If a person writes that he isn't a prophet, is he a prophet, a false prophet, or maybe just a historian. I would believe he is an historian. Not writing God breathed scripture.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:55 am 
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Marv:

Why would Scripture have to be written by a prophet?

Was Solomon a prophet? Were the authors of such books as Judges and Chronicles prophets? Since we don't know for sure who those authors were, how could we tell?

Was Luke a prophet? Or James? Or the author to the Hebrews?

As to the three references you allude to in 1 Maccabees, I can only assume they are the following:
Quote:
4:44-46. They deliberated what ought to be done with the altar of burnt offerings that had been desecrated. They came up with the good plan to tear it down, lest it be a reproach to them that the Gentiles had defiled it; so they tore down the altar. They stored the stones in a suitable place on the temple mount, until a prophet should come and decide what to do with them.

9:27. A great distress happened in Israel, such as had not happened since the day a prophet had not appeared among them.

14:41. The Jewish people and their priests are pleased that Simon shall be their permanent leader and high priest until a faithful prophet arises.

Of these three, only 9:27 could be construed -- and only inferentially -- as a declaration that prophecy had ceased. Both 4:44-46 and 14:41 sound to me like they were expecting God to raise up a prophet in the immediate future, not as if they thought prophecy had been discontinued. In that light, I think it would be more on the mark to interpret 9:27 as characterizing a short-term situation rather than as a comprehensive declaration of the cessation of prophecy.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:39 am 
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Quote:
From Malachi to John the Baptist, no prophet was to be found.

I'm not sure we can use absence of evidence as evidence of absence.
By the way, what about Luke 2:
Quote:
There was also a prophet, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped there with fasting and prayer night and day. 38 At that moment she came, and began to praise God and to speak about the child to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

This woman was an 80+ year old prophet when John the Baptist was born.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:52 am 
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03cobra#116 wrote:
Quote:
From Malachi to John the Baptist, no prophet was to be found.

I'm not sure we can use absence of evidence as evidence of absence.
By the way, what about Luke 2:
Quote:
There was also a prophet, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped there with fasting and prayer night and day. 38 At that moment she came, and began to praise God and to speak about the child to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.

This woman was an 80+ year old prophet when John the Baptist was born.

At the risk of being obvious; John the Baptist was an old testamant Prophet who started his prophetic work after Malachi and ended it before the beginning of the new covenant.


Cheers

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:13 am 
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Quote:
At the risk of being obvious; John the Baptist was an old testamant Prophet who started his prophetic work after Malachi and ended it before the beginning of the new covenant.

I agree with that.
And Anna was a prophet that could be found between Malachi and John the Baptist. I expect there were others.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:10 am 
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I'm not trying to innovate or use my own interpretation. For the Apocrypha to be scripture, you have to assume the prophets who wrote scripture packed up and moved to Egypt. I

I don't find any evidence that any of the authors of the Apocryphal books were recognized as a prophet when they wrote.

As for it needing to be a prophet to write scripture. We see that no one wrote scripture of his own, but rather it is God breathed writing. If you believe writing God-breathed scripture is not being a prophet, then I guess we just have to disagree.

If you take the Apocrypha as God breathed writing, then I expect you to belong to a group that performs exorcisms using fish guts (Tobit).

I expect you believe God did not create the heavens and the earth from nothing, but rather from formless matter. Wisdom 11:17

And you believe suicide is noble. 2 Mac 14:42.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:37 am 
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While I don't consider the apocrypha on par with the other OT scriptures (remember, "scriptures" just means writings), if we judge canonicity on the basis of individual verses there are some books in the protestant OT canon that might fail too. There are some books in the NT too that might fail too.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:01 am 
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Marv wrote:
I'm not trying to innovate or use my own interpretation. For the Apocrypha to be scripture, you have to assume the prophets who wrote scripture packed up and moved to Egypt. I

Ezekiel wrote from Babylonian exile. Daniel also wrote from exile. Jeremiah fled/was-kidnapped to Egypt and wrote Lamentations. Scripture provides sufficient evident to make writing outside of Palestine no problem at all.

Marv wrote:
I don't find any evidence that any of the authors of the Apocryphal books were recognized as a prophet when they wrote.

That's because none of them claimed to be a prophet. Their writings are placed among the histories and among the wisdom literature.

Marv wrote:
As for it needing to be a prophet to write scripture. We see that no one wrote scripture of his own, but rather it is God breathed writing. If you believe writing God-breathed scripture is not being a prophet, then I guess we just have to disagree.

Being a prophet like Isaiah and jeremiah and being a writer of sacred scripture like the author of Job and the author(s) of 1 & 2 Kings is not the same thing. The prophet's role was to speak to those in power, and to the nation, with a message of encouragement and judgement so that the people and their rulers would return to God. The author of Job and the author(s) of 1 & 2 Kings filled a rather different role.

In the broad sense the prophets and the other writers of scripture did indeed prophesy, but that is not exactly what your stament implied is it? You wondered if they were recognised as prophets in their own life times which appears to imply that you were expecting them to be like Isaiah or Jeremiah.


Marv wrote:
If you take the Apocrypha as God breathed writing, then I expect you to belong to a group that performs exorcisms using fish guts (Tobit).

I expect you believe God did not create the heavens and the earth from nothing, but rather from formless matter. Wisdom 11:17

And you believe suicide is noble. 2 Mac 14:42.

Interstingly the Lord healed using spittle and mud. John the Baptist went about in camel's hail clothing and ate locusts. Does that deminish their call from God or make them unacceptable messengers? I hope not!

Cheers

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:20 am 
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As to creating out of nothing, the NET Bible notes for Genesis 1:1 say:
Quote:
The English verb “create” captures well the meaning of the Hebrew term in this context. The verb בָּרָא (bara’) always describes the divine activity of fashioning something new, fresh, and perfect. The verb does not necessarily describe creation out of nothing (see, for example, v. 27, where it refers to the creation of man); it often stresses forming anew, reforming, renewing


repeating: "The verb does not necessarily describe creation out of nothing"

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:57 am 
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03cobra#116 wrote:
As to creating out of nothing, the NET Bible notes for Genesis 1:1 say:
Quote:
The English verb “create” captures well the meaning of the Hebrew term in this context. The verb בָּרָא (bara’) always describes the divine activity of fashioning something new, fresh, and perfect. The verb does not necessarily describe creation out of nothing (see, for example, v. 27, where it refers to the creation of man); it often stresses forming anew, reforming, renewing


repeating: "The verb does not necessarily describe creation out of nothing"


Context is determinative of whether this occurrence of בָּרָא is creatio ex nihilo or not. To suppose that something was in fact present prior to the creation of Genesis one is to speak with no Scriptural support (it doesn't mean that it's not possible, but it certainly means you have no biblical basis for assuming it).

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:52 am 
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Quote:
To suppose that something was in fact present prior to the creation of Genesis one is to speak with no Scriptural support

well, couldn't we also say
Quote:
To suppose that nothing was in fact present prior to the creation of Genesis one is to speak with no Scriptural support


I see the scripture as silent on the matter.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Great points, Cobra.
Don't you hate it when a good thread like this is split into two or three?
One point I don't think anyone has yet mentioned: Many early Church Fathers, including,
Clement, Origen, Irenaeus, etc.. quoted the deuterocanonanicals as authoritative scripture. Then there are the early Church councils....
S

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:07 pm 
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03cobra#116 wrote:
Quote:
To suppose that something was in fact present prior to the creation of Genesis one is to speak with no Scriptural support

well, couldn't we also say
Quote:
To suppose that nothing was in fact present prior to the creation of Genesis one is to speak with no Scriptural support


I see the scripture as silent on the matter.


Actually Cobra John says exactly that in the introduction of his Gospel account. This is a parallel to the Genesis one opening.

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