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Jesus will be the one who comes with His sickle and takes out the tares, treads them as the grapes of wrath. It is not my job to pull them up and toss them out, but His.

What I am saying is that there are times when I have a person who is taking huge amounts of time, energy, and assets. If they are God's, I am more than willing to expend everything I have for them. If they are not, I will treat them with respect, continue to preach the Word, and leave the rest up to the Lord.

Now, turning to your next statement, how could a false prophet be a Christian? If a person is counterfeiting being a sheep--one of the Lord's--and is actually a wolf impersonating one of God's, I see no reason to believe that would be acceptable to Jesus. Look at Acts 8:14ff and the story of Simon, who saw the power of God at work and tried to buy it--and this after he had presented himself as a believer. Peter tells Simon something like your money perish with you.

The statement you made that I am really struggling to understand is this: "Within the same context he has the saying of Jesus about those who falsely throw out or excommunicate Christians from the church and break His law of love claiming they are doing it in His name - Matthew 7:21-23."

Mt. 7:21-23 is not talking about a Church leader throwing anyone out of the Church. It is talking about Jesus judging someone. This is a Scripture that says to me that no one can fool the Lord. He knows if we are faking our Christianity. Jesus isn't tossing these people out of a Church here on earth; He is tossing them out of Heaven. Am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say?

There is a Scripture in 3 John about Diotrephes keeping Christians, even the Apostle John, from coming into the Church he leads. Is this what you are referring to? If so it was not on the Mt. of Beatitudes but written by John to Gaius.

If this doesn't answer your question, try again. If I understand what you are asking and if I have the answer, I will be glad to tell you what I have learned from the Word.

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Blessings in the Lord to all whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life

We preach Christ, and Him Lifted Up!

Well, I'll say this: If my pastor/priest/clergyman told me that the rapture was coming and that I should prepare (give away my belongings, etc.), I'd be very upset, to put it mildly, if it didn't happen.

Trust is not something one should expect unless they've earned it. How many pastors have truly earned the trust placed in them by their followers? Very few, I'd say. Every other day one can read in the news about various scandals among clergymen.

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Some say Jesus was not a pacifist...

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Matthew 26:52 (NIV)

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.
Galatians 5:14

Pam, your posts are very eloquent and I appreciate your responses. You obviously know scripture and you're an excellent writer. But the things you say are the same things I've been hearing from various Christians say all my life.

A few things that struck me...

This is an unprovable assertion. There are millions and millions of people who do not believe that -- and many of them as sure in their own faith as you are in yours.

No, I don't believe the unborn is say or think much of anything. But that's another thread.

Both.

Who said I "rejoice" in it? I simply prefer it that way. My comment above (Thank God...) was a joke.

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Some say Jesus was not a pacifist...

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Matthew 26:52 (NIV)

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.
Galatians 5:14

Pam,

I am pleased that you are not uprooting the tares. I grew up in the brethren where, although there were many Godly people, too often it occurred that those in power excluded Christian members. I have a friend who was read out of her assembly for the evil of joining a choir organised by a church in another denomination.

You may well be right that a false prophet is not a Christian. But it seems that certainly they give the appearance of being Christian and we should beware that we are not lead astray. Whether they are or are not Christian is not for me to judge, but I can judge whether their actions and teachings depart from the Gospel. As a contemporary example, certainly there are many being lead astray by the prosperity gospel.

Now for the passages in Matthew.
When Matthew was inspired to write a gospel he was writing for the situation of his church and he arranged the stories to highlight issues that needed to be addressed in his church. The teaching of 7:21-23 is part of the section from Matt 4:17 where Jesus starts his ministry and Matthew presents His teaching as a whole to then end of chapter 7 with Matthew 7:28-29. Here we have Jesus teaching on his fulfilment of the law (evidently Matthew's church attended the synagogue and were devout in their obedience to the law) and what that means in Matt 5:20-48. He also gives us Jesus' teaching to his disciples on giving, praying, forgiving, fasting, treasure, security, and other ways his disciples should and should not act. He concludes the teaching on discipleship and mission (for the mission of His disciples is to continue the mission of Jesus) by telling us that there are false prophets who can be discerned by the fruits they produce, and the traditional confessions of faith are not enough. You might cast out demons in His Name, you might work miracles in His Name, but unless you do the will of His Father in Heaven that were described in Matthew 5-7 then you are evil and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, so be wise and act on His teaching.

Now there are those who think that by excommunicating they are casting out demons from their churches. They would do well to understand that royal law of love that Matthew emphasises in Matthew 18. Matthew is countering the very legalistic approach that some in his church had. If anyone's church is legalistic and loves to find rules to follow (and possibly use them as a power trip on other Christians) they would do well to understand the message of the "law" of love that God is giving through the Gospel of Matthew. Of course, they need to have the eyes to see or the ears to hear that message. That sort of church is often blind to all of Matthew 18 except vs 15-18.

Jude 1:24-25

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

I think it would be time to start thinking about moving on, or seeing if s/he was in need of some pastoral support.

Apparently some people have paid money to a business for looking after people's pets that were left behind . No refunds in the case the rapture did not occur, of course.

Of course, giving away your things is in the Gospels, but it is a very political act in the spirit of the great OT prophets, and not for some misguided prediction.

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

It is unprovable only to those who will not believe the Scriptures. And those who will not believe the Scriptures would not believe even if someone rose from the dead to tell them (Luke 16:27-31).

John 17:3 3 Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. Context (NET)

John 14:6 6 Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Context (NET)

Acts 4:11-12 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, that has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.” Context (NET)

John, how do we know that the evangelist's purpose in writing was to address a situation or issues in his church?

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Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

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There is credible scholarship on this.

A short example is the use of The Lords prayer by Matthew and Luke.
In Luke there is much encouragement to pray and the indications are that they were finding praying hard and possibly thinking of abandoning it altogether, so the Lords prayer is set in a situation where the disciples ask Jesus how to pray.
Matthew is set in the context of Jewish Christians who attend the synagogue and have no difficulty in prayer. In fact they tend to go overboard. Matthew tells them not to weary God with long praying and gives the Lords prayer as an example of all the prayer that is necessary.

So for Luke The Lord's Prayer is Praying 101, while for Matthew it is KISS - Keep It Short and Simple.

Each of us may be in a situation or church where Matthew's or Luke's message may be the more appropriate.

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

In other words, what you have stated as fact is actually something you have inferred?

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Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity!

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Everybody infers, as you have inferred.

This is going to take us down the path to epistemology.

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

So then let me ask you: How is it that perfectly resonable people come to varying conclusions about religious doctrine?

It's a rhetorical question because I already know that it's mostly due to learned behaviors and customs from your parents and ancestors. No life on this earth asked to be born -- they simply were. And if one wasn't born into a Christian family but into, say, a Muslim one in Pakistan, then how is that soul supposed to be able to learn about and seek the Christian God? The answer is that 90% of the time they can't.

Some (or many) men are indeed with excuse. All one needs to do is to open their eyes and see.

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Some say Jesus was not a pacifist...

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Matthew 26:52 (NIV)

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.
Galatians 5:14

did you ever suppose the 1s who God Knew would accept Him were born into the Christian households? -- life is not some random, chance event to God

God Disagrees -- Re: this, perhaps it is you who needs to open your eyes to Him...

bluesman,

This is very interesting question and one that many Christians are not prepared to think about and I am afraid the response too often is "Hey, have I got a proof-text for you".

We all come into a heterogeneous world with its family, community and cultural beliefs. We also bring our own unique personality, life experiences and education. Initially we believe what our family and significant people for us tell us, and then we start to take on the beliefs of our religious community. For various reasons some people notice a cognitive dissonance between the world as they experience it (including revelation from God) and the world view presented to them and start working out their own faith (perhaps working out their own salvation as it is stated in the scriptures - if we wish to infer that meaning). It is often very difficult for those who have not reached that stage to comprehend that God deals with each of us as individuals and that none of us a complete understanding and may characterise it as backsliding, heresy, unsound doctrine etc especially if that person was originally in their religious community.

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

The trinity is not a concept found in the bible but may be inferred from the scriptures.

Personally I find it a useful picture as it reminds us that God is a God of relationships.

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes

As a gentle reminder this forum is for Pastor's - please read the forum description before posting in this forum!

For those new to the forum or those just to lazy or don't want to bothered to look it up here ya go:



so if you don't fit the above please kindly sit on your hands!

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Jennifer Dent
Site Administrator

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As a young person in my assembly in the UK at an election I was told by one member that a Christian would vote Conservative and by another that he could not see that a Christian could not vote anything but Labour. That certainly taught me to be wary of advice on allegiance to Political Parties or of saying that one was more Christian than the other.

It is true that often church leaders are not sufficiently expert in these matters, but that is not always the case. In Australia Tim Costello, who is now CEO of World Vision Australia, was elected Mayor of St Kilda and for a while was able act on behalf of the poor and oppressed in line with the mission that Jesus gave us. This is described in his book Streets of Hope: Finding God in St Kilda (1997).

I do think that, as spiritual leaders we should not be telling our flocks how to vote, but we should be helping them to explore the issues of Justice that are being presented by the world we live in.

Dom Helder Camara, once Archbishop of Brazil's poorest diocese said "When I feed the poor, they call me a saint, but when I ask why some are poor they call me a communist."

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John

My soul looks back in wonder at how I got over

We who believe in freedom cannot rest until it comes