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Hello all,

I am the pastor of a small conservative southern baptist church in the South. We have been losing good people that have been regular attenders but are not eligible to become members because of our by-laws.

Our by-laws state that you must be baptized in a baptist church in order to become a member at our church. When I first accepted the call here (about a year and a half ago) this was #1 on my "hit list." Not only is this an un-biblical requirement, but it's just plpain stupid in a small town like ours where growth will always be a challenge. For the last 5-6 years our church has had a slow, steady decline in attendance because of this issue.

As I look at the things that need to be changed this really is my #1 concern. So....how would you all go about changing this. I know the wording I want to use (believer's baptism, full immersion, non-salvific act of faith and obedience), but how to I get the CONGREGATION to bite?

ALSO....one of the other things that we have is a very bloated church membership roll. We have about 125-150 resident members, yet our attendance is around 55-65 on any given Sunday. My opinion is that we need to start an "active member" and "inactive member" roll, and that once you've spent a year on the "inactive member" roll you are removed from the church rolls. There are MANY members here that haven't attended for 5-15 years!! In our little town, "membership" to a church is important, but actually going isn't. My reason for wanting to change this is twofold....1) To challenge the people who are members...if you want to be a member, you have to BE a functioning member, 2) To make membership something that matters. There are non-members that are much more involved than many of our "members" and yet they cannot have a vote or a voice in church matters.

Am I treading dangerous waters here?? Please feel free to give me your thoughts and opinions on these matters. We have a business meeting on next Wednesday, and I'm sure that this will be the dominating issue we will discuss. Thanks for your time and opinions in advance.

-Kopio

I think, as a church deacon for over 20 years, that membership should be made difficult. When I re-wrote our constitution I defined what was required of membership and I stated what was required for attendance and the amount of services that needed to be attended to stay an active member. In addition, I stated in the constitution that baptism by a church of like faith was acceptable.

You may want to talk to your deacons about revising and updating your church constitution.

Yes you very much are treading dangerous waters in most Traditional Baptist churches.

I would advise you avoid the issue untill you have a complete plan and all your ducks in a row. From what you've posted here you are not ready and I believe you are missing quite a few details. You are treading some very emotional issues for some who may (in my experience will) raise up quickly and become antagonistic over issues like this.

First, have you thoroughly studied (not reviewed but studied) the history of the church? Within the church minutes (from start to end) can be some real clues to how you should handle this. Has a pastor in the past abused some power which may still be an issue for some? This may effect how you should approach this issue. Has the church in the distant past (as many conservative Baptists have) voted people out of fellowship for various reasons? This can be a historical precedence which you can use in your favor. Study these and find out the reasons why and by what proceedure. Has your current constitution and by-laws been properly approved? I found that my current church is operating under a constitution and by-laws which have never been voted for and approved by the congregation. Some pastor or congregant plugged them in the "minute book" and there they were.

Second, talk with your leaders. Don't hit the issue head on. Find out through conversation what they think about the problems. What are their "sacred cows" and why do they have whatever particular one they have? Knowing your Deacons/leaders well and them knowing your heart will help when the issue becomes a heated subject. Find the "bell-cow" and spend the time with him/her that you need to to influence him/her. The "bell-cow" is that individual (or individuals) that all look to see how they're voting. It's sometimes imperceptable but they are the key influencers. Sometimes they're spiritually minded and sometimes not. If you gain the trust and respect of these individuals it will help your process.

Next, find out what your folks have been taught. I know they're Baptists but that does not mean they've been taught these distinctives and thier proper meaning. Rather, they may have been following traditions and teachings which are wrong Biblically. Since they're conservative Baptist this means you've a great tool at your disposal. THE BIBLE! Teach and preach some Biblically sound topical sermons on the key issues. Handle the objections (with extreem care amd caution) and major issues from the Biblical revelation. Get in a Bible study with your Deacons/Leaders privately about these issues. This is a great way to let the Lord effect the change and not be percieved as the one who's changing everything.

Next, what other leaders do your people (both leaders & congregants) respect? Do they listen to Christian radio? If so, who do they listen to? Do the like to hear McArthur? What about Chuck Swindoll or John Piper or Max Lucado? If they listen to some of these men, as well as many others, you may be able to gain a little traction on the Baptism issue. For instance you might point out that by the current by-laws you'd accept the baptism of a "Free-will Baptist" church but not one from Swindoll's church (This argument is currently working in my congregation). In some Free-Will Baptist Churches the baptism is for salvation. You might also raise the point that there are not so clear a set of distinctives in denominations as there once was.

You may want to seriously think about the objections as well. For instance, will you make exceptions in your roll requirements for shut-ins and active military? This is where the antagonist will hit you hard and, if you're not prepared, they will weaken your influence with things like this. BTW, I implemented a plan to take communion with our deacons to our shut-ins. This saved me from the above objection because the congregation realized already my care and concern for the shut-ins.

These are just a few things. Talk with the pastors in your area who've made this kind of change. They'll be able to better identify the main issues you'll deal with. Talk also with you SBC district representitive. He'll be a good resource for you.

Last but never least, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY!

Blessings,
Randy

very sound pts from Randy -- ain't a pastor so will offer 1 pewster perspective

church membership is a manmade distinction that is irrelevant -- if i actively attend your church, then why would i need to become a member? -- the voting bit, to me, would be something any in attendance could do -- it sounds like this org has unnecessary obstacles in place that keep people outside the church doors -- why on earth would we want to do that? -- perhaps a sign like "sinners welcome" would be more representative of what the sancuary should represent

is it common knowledge that membership doesn't save?! -- has this distinction been made abundantly clear via a newsletter sent to everyone?

For what it's worth....I have a pretty complete plan of what I believe needs to be done. What I'm looking mostly for is advice, which you have given in spades, so I thank you for that.



No I haven't really studied they church's history. There really isn't any written history available. There are a lot of stories, but no past minutes I could delve into. I do know a bit about past issues, but there simply isn't a place where I can go and study them.



The deacons are in agreement with me....well not 100% but mostly! One deacon said he wants it to stay the same because he's been a southern baptist for 50 years and that's how they've always done it! He did say that he wouldn't speak out against the changes we are making, but with his secret ballot he said he would most likely vote against it. He is a very wonderful man, and I greatly appreciate his candor...and I've told him that in front of the rest of the deacons. There are a couple of bell-cows, that I have become very close with. I've never differed with them on anything, but the relationship is there so that I should be able to bend, not break in the process. One of the bell-cows said they'de like to be on the review committee. I think that's a great idea, since, if I can get it by this person, many will be swayed.



This is going to be the subject of my next sermon series. To be started right after Easter. IMO what makes us distinctively baptist is our theology. To many of them it is the traditions. I'm planning on a "Church 101" series that addresses things like membership, baptism, traditions, as well as baptist distincives.



That could be treading dangerous waters. There's a lot who like the TBN crowd here. I think it has a lot to do with the Southern Gospel music they have on all the time. There are a lot of people who watch and listen to people I consider poor teachers and even worse theologians. BUT...since the Gaither's have been on their show they're ok!!



I've thought a bit about this as well. Shut-ins are fairly numerous in our community, but they probably only compose 1-2% of our congregation. We would certainly make provisions for the above mentioned people though.


I can honestly say that I've gone to the Lord about this more than just about anything else I've done at our church. I know I could force change on them...have them buck...lose some members, perhaps wear out my welcome. But that's not how God wants things done. I'm more oncerned with making them see what scripture has to say, and how we need to adjust so that we are in accordance with God's word.

I really appreciate your thoughs and comments. I would readily welcome any more insight any of you have to add.




Actually church membership here in the south is VERY important. At our church you cannot lead a bible study, be on any committee's, have a vote or lead any type of class at all unless you are a member. The boting thing you CANNOT do if you have church by-laws that say "only members can vote." And yes....there are a number of obstacles in place at our church....that's what this is all about! At this point I don't need comments about our problems....I need comments about what can be our solution.

Thanks again for your input though. I do welcome advise from any and all comers!

-Kopio

My Brother,

I am not sure what your experience is but I strongly reccomend you get Kenneth C Haugk's Antagonists in the Church and read it.

From what I see you are about to step out of the "honey-moon" phase of your pastorate there and find out who some really are. I hope your dissenting deacon follows through. You might also experience that deacon who goes along with the crowd in the leadership meetings but is talking down your actions while you're not around. I know this sounds bleak and sceptical but believe me, it happens.

Please speak with other innovative pastors in your area before you cross this bridge. Those who've tried this and were either successful or not. Get their input.

Blessings,
Randy

understood, but know that you are not the only 1 that will read this thread -- Randy already provided sound strategies so i took another tact

this doesn't make it right nor Biblical -- traditions of man are not always good, after all

as a pewster, i would want LEADERSHIP on the issues you seek to address -- i would want to know what you see as the problem & your Biblical support for the position -- i would want to know your plan -- if i agreed with the Biblical support, then the changes would be welcomed -- church tradition be damned -- it would also be assumed by me that you would seek buy-in from the leadership prior to bringing this to the congregation

people come & go from churches all the time -- so what -- preach the Word as the Spirit Leads & you're g2g

please note i am not speaking to any denominational edicts or any of the legal stuff -- perhaps some things simply cannot change due to the denomination's rules -- but there's sure to be a process in place to change rules

@ the extreme end, if the rules are not in line with the Word then a future break with the denomination could become necessary -- we seek God's Favor, not that of some denomination &/or congregation -- not an easy road to walk but neither is going against God's Will

kopio, in addition to the responses already noted I encourage you, in preaching your church series, to fully explore Ephesians with the church. For some reason Ephesians is usually passed over or given short shrift by many pastors, and, surprisingly. by most commentators. In fact, it is the gold standard on Ecclesiology and provides Paul's most profound insights into the church. Consider doing this before moving for the changes you have in mind. I'm a baptist pastor also, or was, and, you are certainly right; to often we have major problems with tradition, as you indicated. Randy has offered some important caveats. Many in this forum will be asking the Lord to give you wisdom and encouragement.

I have led the congregation that I am currently pastoring through a By-Laws change where we RADICALLY altered the doctrinal statement. This was made easier because as it was orginally written it was historically heretical and unbelievably deficient (but I still had to make a case for the orthodox confession and the need to include more than had been). It was also not in line with our wider fellowship's confession which made it a simpler matter since I could propose the adoption of our wider fellowship's statement. But, believe it or not, there were still issues since (according to some) "We have always had this statement and no other pastor has had a problem with it." I took a year and a half of working through this both with my elders and with the congregation as a whole before it was taken up for an official vote of adoption. I did all of this within the first 2 years of being the pastor here, but drew up a lengthy and precise case in writing for the reasons for adoption that followed a proposal with extensive noting of issues and proposal of resolutions. We spent many meetings as a group of elders praying over this and discussing it at length and made it a matter of teaching in the congregation. That was six years ago.

Now about 3 months ago we have begun another process of review of our By-Laws because of significant deficiencies in membership issues, eldership requirements, outdated language, areas that need addressed or no longer need addressed. So we are working through this again, but using (once again) the wider fellowship's (denomination's) proposed statements on these issues to help guide us and will likely not be done till Jan. 2012 and take it for official vote to the body in March 2012. I guess part of what I'm saying is...take a LONG range view of these things and plan for the long haul without the intention of rushing this and use whatever resources (denominationally) are at your disposal.

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i hear this sometimes @ work (usually from the old timers &/or least productive -- is there a connection?!) & always find it an ignorant stmt -- in your case, previous pastors may have been Called to focus on different matters 1st -- maybe they overlooked it, didn't think it important, or were too timid to address it -- the fact remains it's irrelevant! -- the Q that needs to be addressed is does the stmt align with the Word

listening to this discussion reminds me how inflexible people really are -- it's a sad commentary on us all & a reminder that we each need to be ready & willing to be Pruned by the Father (John 15:2) as this could be 1 of the ways He does it