Bible.org Forum

3a: Christian Living :: RE: Drinking?

Author: JeffL
Date: May 12, 2008, 1:14 am
# of Replys: 104

anything we allow to come between ourselves and the Lord, any system of thought that we could put before the Lord, any aspect of our existence that could come before that relationship is certainly an idolatry.

that's what Adam did, He turned his back on God. before rebellion, it was a lack/neglect of Love for the Lord.

God will Judge according to Truth (Rom.2). He knows our thoughts and the intent of our heart. We can rethink and rereason stuff to whatever end we want, but God will judge according to Truth.

If we acknowledge the Lord in everything we do, and stay True to God- And to ourselves, (conscience being the seat of conviction), isn't that what the Lord is discerning? I mean in those so called "gray areas", we should be able to walk in Faith in these areas (nonessential), regardless of what we decide. In other words (back to the point), God's not looking at whether or not one chooses to drink, but rather the standard would be whether or not we acknowledge Him. -and, as we study to show ourselves approved, the Word will wash us clean. It looks gray cause we're not looking at it like God looks at it. Daily reading of the Word, we begin to see it like God sees it, and respond appropriately.

-so that we're not blameless drunks...

it's past my bedtime.

3a: Christian Living :: RE: Drinking?

Author: AnthonyXM
Date: May 11, 2008, 11:14 pm
# of Replys: 104

I have heard it said "God forgive us, for we know only too well what we do."

Crime depends on intent, not the act committed; without intent there is no crime.
Without intent there is no sin - unless the sin is ignorance.

Lot? What did he have of his own?
That was his sin.

We fight the Power of the World, which shares Lot's sin.
Sin is that which gets between us and God - with our consent.

God bless you.

Church Life :: RE: iChurch

Author: psychobobicus
Date: May 11, 2008, 11:01 pm
# of Replys: 6

I mean the actual gathering together of believers on Sunday morning (or whenever we meet). Where is it that this meeting is "about the relationship between believers and the world"?

Church Life :: RE: Why bother with Church at all?

Author: psychobobicus
Date: May 11, 2008, 10:58 pm
# of Replys: 36

[quote:3ghukww5]Now there was a complaint about "feel good" sermons. I think sermons need to all be rewritten/reworked and never recycled! How come on Monday morning we can remember the great play from Saturday's game but not the point of Sunday's sermon? Is it because we don't care? More likely the sermon was not interesting. What do you remember about sermons? The illustrations. Personally I elaborate the illustration, make sure the point is a good one and leave it at that! Short sermon (yay!) and more time to focus on God. Anyhow...that is my own soapbox....and not really relevant to this discussion. So I'll stop now.
[/quote:3ghukww5]
I think it is relevant to the discussion. For several months my wife and I struggled over where to go to church, partly because the old pastor retired and the new one did not prepare very well. Church bacame a place we went on Sundays for loud music and lukewarm preaching. Personally, I am learning a lot more application from the short homilies given at the church we go to now (today's -not having taken any notes - challenged us to live out the call to take the Gospel to the world in light of the celebration of Pentecost). The service seems much less ridgid and compartmentalized without the hour-long lecture filled with witty jokes and anecdotes, preceeded by a mediocre half-hour CCM concert. Unfortunately our experience was repeated several times over as we looked for a church.

Church Life :: RE: Why bother with Church at all?

Author: psychobobicus
Date: May 11, 2008, 10:44 pm
# of Replys: 36

In deference to the mods, I am going to remain neutral by not addressing your church Cobra. I am commenting on things I've picked up from several sources.
I gave statistics I found in non-Christian news magazines. Overall church attendence is down 14% while the growth of mega-churches is up from 10 to 740. I think the information I got about people moving from smaller churches to mega-churches is from [i:hfn0ks1x]Rev[/i:hfn0ks1x] magazine a few months ago that cited a Barna study showing the conglomeration of churches. I don't know if my community follows the national trend, but I immagine it does, so some of the people at the smaller congregations might have stopped all together ("why bother?") I personally know several who have begun attending the mega-church in town.
[quote:hfn0ks1x][quote:hfn0ks1x]Again, Cobra, is the point of church to make us feel comfortable, an extention of our culture's obsession with leisure?[/quote:hfn0ks1x]
Who said that was the point? The point is the mission -- to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.
[/quote:hfn0ks1x]
A pastor did:
[quote:hfn0ks1x]Our worship service environment is designed for you - our guest. Just like a home, we expect and ask for nothing of you but to be our guest.
[/quote:hfn0ks1x]
[quote:hfn0ks1x]All the more reason to make people welcome.[/quote:hfn0ks1x]
Continuing to do more and more of the same thing, expecting a different outcome is...well we all know.
[quote:hfn0ks1x]That's not the way I see it. Do you have any data to support that view? Or any basis to believe it? Bringing Christians from other churches has never been a goal at Northpoint.
[/quote:hfn0ks1x]
See above. Also, though I disagree with much of his conclusion, Dan Kimball has found this to be true by interviewing hundreds of "unchurched" all over America. In an infinitely smaller example, among my wife and I many of our friends and aquaintences (most of whom are not Christians -yet ), many are fed up with the modern church in the same way as those interviewed by Kimball. Citing "Rev" magazine again:
[quote:hfn0ks1x]In 2001 a worship-driven congregation in my area finally did a survey as to who they were really reaching, and they were shocked. They'd thought their congregation was at least 50 percent unchurched. The real number was 3 percent...As negative attitudes toward conservative Christianity among the unchurched increased in the late '90s and early 2000s, most large-congregation growth efforts became more focused on the churched consumer, even as their written and spoken vision remained focused on the unchurched. And these star performers became masters at what the churched wanted. They raised the bar several times over for what could be expected out of a Sunday morning experience, and they worked tirelessly to develop the high quality, practical programs the churched now demanded. Having excelled at making theirs the best churched experience on the market, they were perfectly positioned to absorb the windfall of disgruntled attendees from dwindling mainline congregations and failed, contemporary start-ups.
-Sally Morgenthaler
[/quote:hfn0ks1x]
[quote:hfn0ks1x]If you are asking why will people come to another production, there must be a reason -- the church has grown in just a few years (12 or so? I'm not sure) from a few people to thousands? [/quote:hfn0ks1x]
How many of those people were not going to other churches? Also, of course there are going to be exceptions, but overall, people are not coming to church.
[quote:hfn0ks1x]You can drive to the store in my wife's 12-passenger van, or you can drive in my 440-HP Cobra with the top down. They'll both get you there. She prefers the van. I'll take the Cobra. We can both bring home the Keebler fudge stripes. Neither one is wrong -- one vehicle is better for her and another is better for me.
[/quote:hfn0ks1x]
Look at it objectively. Can your family function without the minivan, or the Cobra? How many members of your family can you safely take in the Cobra? The minivan? Why did you buy the minivan? Was it because minivans are exciting and fun and you look cool driving it, or because it served the purpose for which you needed a vehicle? Why did you buy the Cobra? Was it because it was functional, able to provide everything all the members of your family needed? Which vehicle is is best for the entire family, not just each individual within it? Which vehicle would promote unity in the family?
I hope you see my point. My purpose is not to disparage people's experiences, but to question certain thinking that goes into the decision of how to run churches. The motivation behind the decision to adopt worldly thinking, asking "what would make church comfortable?" rather than "what would please God?"

Announcements & Board Info and How To :: FREE CRUISE FOR PASTORS.... REALLY!

Author: TravelFlurry
Date: May 11, 2008, 10:33 pm
# of Replys: 0

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This is open until all cabins are reserved/full.

Not many things are free these days.... but this one is!

Church Life :: RE: Why bother with Church at all?

Author: RevLewis
Date: May 11, 2008, 10:28 pm
# of Replys: 36

[quote="JeffL":3o5x2plb]how does your Church feel about driving the Cobra when gas prices are extortionistly(is that a word?) high?

it's a lot of work to enjoy a car anymore. 427 Shelby was always my favorite. now it's a geo metro... hybrid...[/quote:3o5x2plb]

Amen!

Cobra stop driving that car...walk everywhere...send the money to missions!

As for this whole mega-church v. mini-church (just made that up...kind of catchy isn't it) argument. I personally enjoy the mini-church experience, I like the whole "Cheers" feeling (where everybody knows your name).

HOWEVER when it comes to a big project out here I don't go to the mini-church to ask for funding, I go to the mega-churches. Most of them have HUGE missions budgets and give generously. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in this for the money if I was I would have started my own cult! When it comes to prayer I go to the mini-churches because they do all know my name, and they have a high population of older widows (God Bless the old widows that spend hours in prayer every day). Without these two I would have a harder time out here. Now I know missions existed before the "mega-church" and if the Mega-church fades to oblivion it will continue to exist. I remember going with my Dad every Sunday to a different church for a whole year to raise the money he needed to continue ministry. Now the average missionary can do the same in a few months. More time to rest, and back to work faster!

There is a place in the world for both.

Now there was a complaint about "feel good" sermons. I think sermons need to all be rewritten/reworked and never recycled! How come on Monday morning we can remember the great play from Saturday's game but not the point of Sunday's sermon? Is it because we don't care? More likely the sermon was not interesting. What do you remember about sermons? The illustrations. Personally I elaborate the illustration, make sure the point is a good one and leave it at that! Short sermon (yay!) and more time to focus on God. Anyhow...that is my own soapbox....and not really relevant to this discussion. So I'll stop now.

3a: Christian Living :: RE: Drinking?

Author: JeffL
Date: May 11, 2008, 10:17 pm
# of Replys: 104

I have never heard of the bears in the woods... that is very interesting.

I was wondering more along the lines of, if the Israelites used a potency of alcohol beyond that of what was normal for their wine, what did they use it for? Did they drink it, or did they have other purposes for it? How do we know that God gave us whiskey to drink? Would a high proof alcohol be defined as "strong drink"?
-I'm not telling anyone don't drink whiskey, I'm just thinking the only reason to drink it, generally speaking, is not Biblical. In other words, the only reason to drink hard spirits is to get drunk.
My, forced to concede because of experience, opinion is; maybe on a toothache, but beyond that it's for cleaning the floors, man. But also I dont' say it's the right opinion. I can offer no Scripture to support it, it's just observation. Stay True to your conscience, and stay in the Word. The Word will wash our conscience clean.

I've always thought Transgression was the willful disobedience to God. -God's Law- so we KNOW we're doing wrong, we're conscious of it. I.E., Noah and Job. "Blameless" To me that's not going against sincerety towards the Lord.- But when you know you're doing wrong and you do it anyway, that would be transgression.
Job was blameless, but he was still a sinner. Noah was blameless, but he was still a drunk...

Job and Noah would be examples of sinners, but without transgression. Is that a right understanding?

Church Life :: RE: Why bother with Church at all?

Author: JeffL
Date: May 11, 2008, 9:51 pm
# of Replys: 36

how does your Church feel about driving the Cobra when gas prices are extortionistly(is that a word?) high?

it's a lot of work to enjoy a car anymore. 427 Shelby was always my favorite. now it's a geo metro... hybrid...

Church Life :: RE: iChurch

Author: 03cobra#116
Date: May 11, 2008, 9:50 pm
# of Replys: 6

[quote:1upsoth1]Where does this come from? [/quote:1upsoth1]
Where does it come from that the teachings of the church cover the relationship between believers and the world?

It's all through Paul's writings.
We are not to judge unbelievers or hold them to the same standard as we hold believers in 1 Corinthians 5.
He wrote to honor the king and obey laws.
He wrote that slaves should obey masters, even if the masters are not believers.

And church is about more than just fellowship of believers (unless you define fellowship broadly as "fellowship offered" and "fellowship denied"). Again to 1 Corinthians 5, we are told to judge those in the church. And Jesus told us to go to those in the church who were doing wrong and present the error of their ways (along with steps if they reject the discussion).

Church Life :: RE: Why bother with Church at all?

Author: 03cobra#116
Date: May 11, 2008, 9:40 pm
# of Replys: 36

[quote:frbvgczs]The noise and chaotic nature of modern worship services gives no relief from the chaotic and noisy life we tend to live today, but is simply an extention of the over-stimulated routine that we form for ourselves.[/quote:frbvgczs]
If you want to go to church to get away from the chaos and noise of life and focus on God, that's great. That is what some believers need. And there are churches that fill that need. Praise God. We are not all the same.
But don't judge everyone's needs by your own. And don't assume God only designed one order of worship for church. When lives are changed and people turn to God and when people grow in their relationship with Him, it's working. That can happen in a calm church filled with ritual when the Word of God is presented. And it can happen in very different environment.

You can drive to the store in my wife's 12-passenger van, or you can drive in my 440-HP Cobra with the top down. They'll both get you there. She prefers the van. I'll take the Cobra. We can both bring home the Keebler fudge stripes. Neither one is wrong -- one vehicle is better for her and another is better for me.

My condemning her choice would be inappropriate. Her condemning my choice would be inappropriate. My condemning your church would be inappropriate, unless I had some Biblical reason for doing so. My personal preferences aren't sufficient. Your condemning my church would be inappropriate, unless you had some Biblical reason for doing so. Your personal preferences aren't sufficient.

Church Life :: RE: Why bother with Church at all?

Author: 03cobra#116
Date: May 11, 2008, 9:39 pm
# of Replys: 36

[quote:3hnu7tbl]Again, Cobra, is the point of church to make us feel comfortable, an extention of our culture's obsession with leisure?[/quote:3hnu7tbl]
Who said that was the point? The point is the mission -- to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.

[quote:3hnu7tbl]"Come to our church, it's just like sitting in your living room being entertained! Kick back, relax, and watch the big screen!"[/quote:3hnu7tbl]
Where did you hear that? You must not have thought about how many volunteers it takes to make church happen in a way that it is comfortable for the unchurched. Many hundreds every Sunday, from the people directing traffic to the nursery to programs for children to host teams to planning and executing programs from missions to married and single programs. And you won't hear something like I heard in small churches growing up when the guest trio came up, "Y'all pray for us 'cause we haven't had time to practice."
And when the fire alarm goes off during the service, like it did in one of the services a few weeks ago, there has to be a plan to get all those kids to safety.
If you think it's kick back and relax, you haven't an appreciation for the work and dedication that goes into this. Work of dedicated people who love the Lord.

[quote:3hnu7tbl]Something that is conveniently overlooked in this discussion is the fact that while surveys show the huge growth of mega-churches, the overall number of people going to church on Sunday in America continues to decline.[/quote:3hnu7tbl]
All the more reason to make people welcome.

[quote:3hnu7tbl]On a personal note, in the city I live in (about 250,000) there is one mega-church but I know of at least 5 smaller churches that have shut thier doors in the last 2 years.[/quote:3hnu7tbl]
That's bad, but why did they close? Was it because people stopped coming? The regulars died off or moved away and new people did not replace them. Did the new ones not feel welcome? What do you think the reason was?

[quote:3hnu7tbl]There are two unspoken problems here.
1. The contemporary model of making church "comfortable" has failed in its stated goal of reaching the lost.
Instead the church attracts Christians from other churches.[/quote:3hnu7tbl]
That's not the way I see it. Do you have any data to support that view? Or any basis to believe it? Bringing Christians from other churches has never been a goal at Northpoint.

[quote:3hnu7tbl]I think many are the children of the generation that pulled out of society, forming thier own Christian bubble communities. They have grown up going to Christian schools, associating only with other Christians, and have thier own popular culture (that mimicks its secular counterpart from music to marketing to branding) apart from the greater world around them. Rather than making the unchurched "comfortable" these services seem designed to keep these contemporary Christian churchgoers entertained, and keep them from moving on to something more exciting.[/quote:3hnu7tbl]
Same question: do you have hard data or is this opinion and anecdote? As I walked into church today before the service started, there were videos of graduating seniors giving their names, their high schools, and the colleges they planned to attend. I did not see any from Christian schools of the 20 or so I saw. My church doesn't have a Christian school. I think you have opinions on this developed with little real data.

[quote:3hnu7tbl]2. With so much emphasis on trying to make church "confortable" and familiar the church has lost its relevance to people.[/quote:3hnu7tbl]
The one I attend is relevant. It is a comfortable environment for new people to visit. But they hear the gospel. They hear the messages to live right and abandon sin. They hear the message to tell the person they are living with outside of marriage that they're not going to do that anymore. And many become uncomfortable because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God they have heard. The church doesn't need to convict people and make them uncomfortable. Conviction is God's Spirit working with the hearts of individuals.
Those five small churches that shut down -- if they had stayed relevant, would they still be open?

[quote:3hnu7tbl]Church is no different than everyday life. For the non-churchgoer especially church looks like a lower quality version of every other form of entertainment available 24/7. Why bother to making the effort to interrupt daily life with yet another production vying for thier attention? One that (to the outsider)offers no more than any other form of entertainment? [/quote:3hnu7tbl]
If you are asking why will people come to another production, there must be a reason -- the church has grown in just a few years (12 or so? I'm not sure) from a few people to thousands?
Perhaps your quesiton has the wrong premise, that what is offered is a "form of entertainment." Yes, there are aspects of entertainment -- even those small church preachers I was raised with would tell a joke now and then -- but there is much more than entertainment. There is teaching and presentation of God's message.

Church Life :: RE: iChurch

Author: psychobobicus
Date: May 11, 2008, 9:28 pm
# of Replys: 6

[quote:1ygkd77t]And it is also about the relationship between believers and the world.
[/quote:1ygkd77t]
Where does this come from?
I agree with the other two statements, if by "Church is about God and man" you mean man worshipping God, and by "the relationship between believers and other believers" you mean fellowship.
I think gymbo is trying to show the current trend of organizing church to please men rather than God (justified by making the claim that it will bring unbelievers into the church).

4a: Pastor's Corner :: RE: Elders who Rule

Author: Marv
Date: May 11, 2008, 9:14 pm
# of Replys: 6

Setting up your home church doesn't get you away from authority, it's just setting yourself up as the authority.

Church Life :: RE: Why bother with Church at all?

Author: psychobobicus
Date: May 11, 2008, 8:17 pm
# of Replys: 36

Again, Cobra, is the point of church to make us feel comfortable, an extention of our culture's obsession with leisure?
"Come to our church, it's just like sitting in your living room being entertained! Kick back, relax, and watch the big screen!"
Something that is conveniently overlooked in this discussion is the fact that while surveys show the huge growth of mega-churches, the overall number of people going to church on Sunday in America continues to decline.
The number of megachurches has grown from 10 in 1970 to 740 today according to Forbes. But:
[quote:1pfpx49n]For all their seemingly unstoppable success, evangelicals must contend with powerful forces in U.S. society. The ranks of Americans who express no religious preference have quadrupled since 1991, to 14%, according to a recent poll. Despite the megachurch surge, overall church attendance has remained fairly flat.-William C. Symonds in Businessweek Magazine[/quote:1pfpx49n]
On a personal note, in the city I live in (about 250,000) there is one mega-church but I know of at least 5 smaller churches that have shut thier doors in the last 2 years.
There are two unspoken problems here.
1. The contemporary model of making church "comfortable" has failed in its stated goal of reaching the lost.
Instead the church attracts Christians from other churches. I think many are the children of the generation that pulled out of society, forming thier own Christian bubble communities. They have grown up going to Christian schools, associating only with other Christians, and have thier own popular culture (that mimicks its secular counterpart from music to marketing to branding) apart from the greater world around them. Rather than making the unchurched "comfortable" these services seem designed to keep these contemporary Christian churchgoers entertained, and keep them from moving on to something more exciting.
2. With so much emphasis on trying to make church "confortable" and familiar the church has lost its relevance to people. Church is no different than everyday life. For the non-churchgoer especially church looks like a lower quality version of every other form of entertainment available 24/7. Why bother to making the effort to interrupt daily life with yet another production vying for thier attention? One that (to the outsider)offers no more than any other form of entertainment? The noise and chaotic nature of modern worship services gives no relief from the chaotic and noisy life we tend to live today, but is simply an extention of the over-stimulated routine that we form for ourselves. In the end we ask, "Why bother with Church at all?"