What is Faith? ….
Last night a fellowship group I enjoy became a full-blown Charismatic prayer meeting. As I am not a Charismatic I found it extremely uncomfortable. As I am not by default “anti-Charismatic” … (appreciating the Charismatic Christians I know) …. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was it that made me want to run.
One thing was the matter of prayer and faith …. does the ‘prayer of faith’ necessarily mean rising volume? When asking God to heal someone, do we have to assert our ‘authority’ over the problem? Not only that, but also (again loudly) command (God? The devil? …. Or ?) … to remove any and all curses, and the sins of all our ancestors?
I have to say that it sounded very similar to New Age teaching like “The Secret” … or in a Christian version of the same idea …. for example what Joel Osteen teaches.
I came across a very good article by Michael Horton (which I recommend), and following are quotes where Horton speaks about something very similar.
Is faith telling God what to do and then repeating over and over that we believe that it is done? …… Even though we ask for good things - how can we be sure in our fallen finiteness that what we are asking for is in fact the best thing?
Or is faith coming to God our Father, and telling Him all our needs (as we see them to be), all our hurts, all our anxieties, and then committing ourselves and our problems into His loving hands?
I trust God …. It makes me very uncomfortable to tell Him what to do.
If someone can help me with this I would appreciate it.
Dinah
Quote :
Become a Better You: Reflections on Joel Osteen's Latest Book By Michael S. Horton
To become a better you, you must:
1. Keep pressing forward.
2. Be positive toward yourself.
3. Develop better relationships.
4. Form better habits.
5. Embrace the place where you are.
6. Develop your inner life.
7. Stay passionate about life.1
1. Keep pressing forward.
2. Be positive toward yourself.
3. Develop better relationships.
4. Form better habits.
5. Embrace the place where you are.
6. Develop your inner life.
7. Stay passionate about life.1
The theme is "coming up higher." From beginning to end, Osteen addresses his vast readership as though each person is "a child of the Most High God." God has breathed His life into you. He planned seeds of greatness in you. You have everything you need to fulfill your God-given destiny....It's all in you. You are full of potential. But you have to do your part and start tapping into it...You have the seed of Almighty God on the inside of you...We have to believe that we have what it takes.2 It is indeed true that there are appeals to the Bible scattered throughout this book. However, in nearly every case a verse is either torn from its context and turned into a "fortune-cookie" kind of promise that one can name-and-claim for oneself or it is actually misquoted to serve Osteen's point …..
[God has put] laws of prosperity in place, and now the ball is in our court. Following a well-worn path of "victorious life" teachers, Osteen speaks of "tapping into" the eternal realm. In this way, even religion becomes a species of technology: by knowing the right principles, formulas and steps, prosperity, blessing, and favor can be yours here and now. Once again, the Gnostic brand of spirituality is readily apparent. He wants us to have a little heaven on earth, right where we are...[Y]ou can accomplish your dreams before you go to heaven! How can you do that? By tapping into God's power inside of you...Please understand that those are all things from which you have already been set free. But here's the catch: If you don't appreciate and take advantage of your freedom, if you don't get your thoughts, your words, your attitudes going in the right direction, it won't do you any good. You may be sitting back waiting on God to do something supernatural in your life, but the truth is, God is waiting on you. You must rise up in your authority, have a little backbone and determination, and say, 'I am not going to live my life in mediocrity, bound by addictions, negative and defeated.8 I'm all for positive thinking-as long as we don't call it the gospel. ……
Osteen embraces "positive confession," the prosperity doctrine that says if you not only believe for something but declare that it is already yours, the desired blessing will become true. God may be the source of this blessing in an ultimate sense, since he set things up, but whether we actually receive God's favor and blessings depends entirely on our attitude, action, and obedience. Osteen devotes a chapter to "Making Your Words Work for You." "Every day, we should make positive declarations over our lives," he writes. "We should say things such as, 'I am blessed. I am prosperous. I am healthy. I am talented. I am creative. I am wise.'"9 …..
Cale
I mentioned the OT .... and yes, I had the instructions in Deuteronomy in mind .... because you spoke of direct commands from God and/or a "word of knowledge" (please explain the difference) ....
So .... someone believes God has spoken to them telling them to heal a particular person/persons .... they pray/command for them and/or lay hands on the person/s ..... and nothing happens .....
Do you mean that the rules God sets out to show who has really heard from God and who has not no longer apply? Again, I don't see this in the NT .... but am willing to listen.
Yes, that is what I am struggling with .... saying in the Name of Jesus, that healing will occur and then nothing happening. .... but no, I recognize the disparity between the NT church and the church today .... however, as Jenn has said, that may also have to do with our lifestyle.
Yet ..... I have known very godly people whose prayers have not been answered.... so its all very confusing.
Dinah,
Hey there Dinah! You said "nor spoken to anyone to whom this has actually happened."
Well I am someone to whom this has actually happened. Many many years ago I was in a car accident, my legs and back were crushed and my neck was broken. It was my father who laid hands on me and prayed. The bones in my body began to knit back together. They have the x-rays to show that in less than one hour all the bones but one small crack in my pelvis were knitted together. My internal bleeding ceased as well. I was in the hospital for 7 days for observation and only used my cruthes for 1 week after that.
The problem as I see it is Christian today try to talk the talk but there is little walking the walk. Do you remember how the disciples could not cast out a certain demon? What was Christ's response? This type only comes out with prayer and fasting. How many Christians today fast regularly? How many Christians today give everything to God? Not materially but spiritually? How many of us walk the walk that they disciples walked? Sadly not many. I fail in this regularly. Life creeps in and God tends to move a little farther into the back.
1 Cor 12 lists healing as one of the gifts of the Spirit. So I would say that yes, healings DO happen. Just not like you see on the tv ;) At the new users site I have a blog entry titled "Things left at the door" that I will put here as well that you might be interested in.
Cale
I was hoping someone from the Charismatic persuasion would help me ..... thank you
While I understand a little better .... there are still some points which concern me. e.g. ....
You used the comparison of the disciples Jesus sent out - and of Jesus Himself - as an example of command as opposed to prayer .... I can see the distinction you are making .... but .... when Jesus commanded the effect was instant, and from the Gospel accounts, it would seem the 12 and 72 also had similar success. This is rarely the case in my reading of what happens at Charismatic churches, and in fact at this prayer meeting, nothing did happen. ..... wouldn't this tend to disprove, rather than prove, that this is of God?
This is also the case in the rest of the NTthe healing etc happens instantly .... nothing is ever said about what to do if healing does not happen.
Are you saying that you have yourself, laid hands on a genuinely sick person, commanded the sickness to leave and have the person completely healed, in the same way as we read in the NT accounts? ... if you say so, then I will believe you, but I have never seen this, nor spoken to anyone to whom this has actually happene.
I have seen a church at prayer, and groups at prayer and individuals at prayer .... and those prayers being answered .... but not the other.
I struggle with this ... if you say something or command something in the Name of God .... and nothing happens ... what does this say to non-Christians ..... what does it say to anyone who has read the OT? ... where Deuteronomy (for instance) lays down such clear guidelines ..... doesn't it worry you?
Dinah
Yes, Dinah, I have personally laid hands on a person, commanded the sickness to leave, and the person was immediately and completely healed. But I have personally witnessed God perform much more dramatic healings through others in the same manner. A close personal friend of mine received a powerful, life changing healing in that manner during one of our church services earlier this year. She instantly went from many years of constant debilitating pain and progressive crippling to being pain-free and able to run and jump and dance. Praise God! I wish I could say I witness such healings all the time, whether through prayer or a word of faith, but for some reason it seems that many are not healed.
Avid Reader
you said :
Makes me uneasy too. I am
Makes me uneasy too. I am sure thinking positively and not dwelling on depressing thoughts is good practice for our mental health, but am equally sure that doing so does not change the circumstances around us at all. Positive visualisations and repeating positive mantras may make us feel better but they do not change anything outside of the self, whereas pray can and does, as God acts in response to our prayers in some mystical way that I do not think we always understand.
God has chosen to allow his people access to His power via prayer ... but then, I also trust God to know what is best, rather than thinking I, or anyone else, can tell God what to do ... so I strive to submit to "Thy will not mine be done."
i suspect this might become a good topic for the Forum, Dinah.
Sounds like you and I have been going to similar churches <smile>
The struggle for me has been trying to sort out what makes me uncomfortable because I am not used to it ..... and what makes me uncomfortable because it is not true.
The bottom line for me may have to be, that while I accept many Charismatics as my brothers and sisters in Christ, yet this style of worship is not for me.
But re the forum .... unfortunately this kind of topic tends to create more heat than light .....
Dinah
Dinah,
As someone who is a Charismatic, I must admit that many believers of my persuasion have some unbiblical ideas. Of course, Christians of all persuasions tend to have some unbiblical ideas of one kind or another. Unfortunately, we all tend to notice where others are off-base while remaining blind to our own errors and inconsistencies.
I wasn't at your prayer meeting, so I can't really know what happened there, but I will try to make some general observations that I hope will be helpful.
Pentecostals, as a group, tend to be less well-grounded in the Bible than their non-charismatic counterparts, owing partly to the roots of the Pentecostal movement in the United States. Leaders of that movement at its inception had little or no formal theological training. As well, many of them were black. Given the social and academic divide, combined with the apparent emotionalism of Pentecostals, other more learned church leaders who did not understand what God was doing in that movement tended to ostracize its participants. Consequently, Pentecostal church leaders continued to lack formal theological training and therefore did not always follow sound scholarship in their exposition of the Scriptures. What they lacked in erudition they tried to make up for in reliance on the power of the Spirit. But, of course, we need both sound scholarship and the power of the Spirit.
In recent decades that pattern has begun to be reversed. First, Charismatic Bible colleges began to spring up. Then the Holy Spirit began manifesting himself in a Pentecostal fashion among non-Pentecostal churches, leading to a general reconciliation across that church divide. And since then, many seminaries have welcomed Charismatics as students. A fewer number of seminaries have even welcomed Charismatics as teachers in their halls. Even so, there are still a significant number of Pentecostal church leaders with little or no formal training, and it sometimes shows in their congregants.
I mention all this simply to show that Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians may sometimes be off-base in their doctrine or praxis through no real fault of their own. Even though they might have some ideas and practices that aren't truly biblical, they may still be sincere Christians who genuinely love the Lord and are endeavoring to follow him as they have been taught. It's my hope that this perspective will help other believers to see their less educated brothers and sisters in a more pastoral light.
The 'prayer of faith' is not necessarily loud, as of course you know, although I get the distinct impression that some of the prayers recorded in the Bible were spoken quite loudly. But my guess is that the participants in your fellowship group spoke with increasing volume and repetition because they had "learned" the practice by observing their leader(s). Just as you probably learned your manner of public prayer by simply following the examples of others, and only over time did you modify it and make it your own manner of praying. I still remember when it was common practice to pray using Thou, Thine, and Thee, even though nobody talked that way. People prayed that way only because they learned it from observing others.
Commanding the devil to remove curses is probably the result of some well-meaning but wrong-headed teaching. I think it accomplishes nothing except perhaps to confuse others. But I don't think it even begins to approach the error of Joel Osteen's humanistic teaching.
Now, I don't believe it is ever our place to order God to do anything. On the other hand, our petitions may sometimes sound as though we are telling God what to do when in reality we are being carried along by the Holy Spirit as the disciples evidently were in Acts 4:29-30. Many times as I pray, the Holy Spirit wells up within me so that the words I pray originate with him, coming in much the same way that a word of prophecy might. You have probably had similar experiences. The thing is, the Holy Spirit is always gentle with us, allowing us to yield to him to the degree we choose. And he never violates our own sensibilities. So if I believe it would be improper for me to pray with the kind of boldness the disciples exercised in Acts, he will not take me there.
It may also be helpful to note that there is a difference between praying to God and speaking a word of faith. Peter prayed to God in Acts 9:40 and then he spoke a word of faith to Tabitha. He simply spoke a word of faith in Acts 3:6. When Jesus sent out the 72 to various towns, he did not tell them to pray for the sick. He told them to heal the sick. In other words, he gave them authority to heal. I take that to mean they could heal in the same way Jesus did—by their touch and by their word. While it is biblical to pray for the sick, it is also biblical to lay hands on the sick and to command sickness to leave.
There are times when God prompts me to lay hands on someone and rebuke their sickness. Personally, I would prefer to simply ask God to heal them. If I pray and God doesn't heal them, I can chalk it up to God's sovereign will. But if I command the sickness to go and it doesn't leave, then I look rather foolish. But my responsibility is to obey God's instruction. And when I have done as God has directed me, the person has been immediately made well. Now to be honest, there are times when I know without a doubt that God has directed me and there are times when I think he's directing me but I'm not positive. When I have no doubt, the person is healed. At other times I may look foolish. But if I think God stands ready to heal, I'm willing to look foolish for the sake of another who may be suffering.
I hope the thoughts I have shared will help to shed at least some small light on the concerns you have raised.
In his grace,
Cale
Makes me uneasy too. I am sure thinking positively and not dwelling on depressing thoughts is good practice for our mental health, but am equally sure that doing so does not change the circumstances around us at all. Positive visualisations and repeating positive mantras may make us feel better but they do not change anything outside of the self, whereas pray can and does, as God acts in response to our prayers in some mystical way that I do not think we always understand. God has chosen to allow his people access to His power via prayer ... but then, I also trust God to know what is best, rather than thinking I, or anyone else, can tell God what to do ... so I strive to submit to "Thy will not mine be done." i suspect this might become a good topic for the Forum, Dinah.
Post new comment